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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 01:44 PM
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Not so sure about long term care insurance. Did a thorough analysis of the merits of LTCI several years ago in the capacity of a policy analyst position for a health care agency.

LTCI is highly profitable for the insurance industry b/c it really doesn't cover all that much. Many have a capped amount of nursing home/ltc facility coverage in the policy which is quickly exceeded.
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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 02:04 PM
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I expect you are correct about the cost of long-term care, however, in our case one of the government benefits is a lower price for long-term care insurance.
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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 02:57 PM
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I meant to add a few things before, but the dog fell (don't ask) and we had to run to the vets, but all is fine.

Nina Silverstein (google/amazon.com) has some excellent books on elderly issues just an fyi, and of course there are others but I happen to like her work.

JJS your comment about relatives thinking the "house, heritage to come home to" line - how selfish and so many feel thay way - instead of thinking what is in the best interest of the elder person.

I am thinking some of that will change w/ baby boomer generation - we have been a far more mobile generation than our parents and I think more inclined to be willing to downsize and go to condos/crc's/ etc. - but many have problems leaving the house - it's an overwhelming task going thru all the "stuff" and having others go through your "stuff" and often refer to it as junk, (which they will fight over later) - they keep giving things up along the way and the house and things are the last hold out.

If they must stay in their house, make it as safe as possible (info on this on web too, asa.com, etc - aging in place - levers instead of knobs, reorganizing so things are in reach, and if you can get them to let you help do these things - get them to see it is so they CAN stay more independent - ie; I know you want to stay here and be independent, so let's do our best so you can do that.

rb_traveler is right about our mobile society (autos) and lack of public transport - a huge current issue, esp as elder population will be over the top soon - I sound like I'm on a soapbox but get involved all of us who can now - join American Society of Aging, give htem support, write your congressman, insist they vote positively for public transit and proper planning, elderly issues, etc.

Kmpordgae - your comment about the shameless flirting - an intersting study (discussed mostly in the book The Primal Teen) about MRI studies they did on brains - and an area that changes in teen and young adults (particularly males), settles down, and again changes in old age - so that the impulse to say what may not be appropriate happens in younger years, then the brain say "oops, no think that but don't say it" and then again the brain changes and doesn't block the "shameless flirting" and out it comes - therefor, the comment of there usually being so many "dirty old men" in nursing homes - not just their personality, but wired from the brain and not something they can control the same way.

Care giver burnout is high. Everyone take care of themselves. I swear it took me over a year to feel physically and mentally myself after my mother passed away and the years of caring for her, which I wouldn't have done any differently and was glad I was there - but it takes its toll. Very hard for many to understand if they haven't lived through it.

Care giver burnout happens to have repercussions all along the way - emotional, physical, many interrupt their employment, or particulary stay at home moms who aren't able to return to work, which of course interrupts their future social security or pensions, etc - it's wild. Many seniors have care giver classes/etc which can help witih ideas and support system.

Use the resources of Senior Center staff and area Council on Agings - there are many services that are affordable that can come to the house and help, or someone mentioned Taxi service - a great idea. I did that once for my elderly aunt in LA - the funniest thing was she wasn't using it and when I asked her why she said she didn't want me spending all that money on cabs - I said Auntie, I already paid for it, that's what the coupons are - I already paid the company - once she got that, then she used them like wildfire so I wouldn't have "wasted" my money !! Go figure.

Some elders choose to live their lives perhaps differently than we would, or we would like them to, safety issues aside - it's hard but necessary to sometimes see we can't control everything, but do the best we can.

But do take advantage of some of the great books and resources on the web - they will at the least, help you not feel like the bad guys. All of you taking care of elders don't beat yourselves up -
look in the mirror and be proud. If others around you don't get it, I feel badly for them - they are missing some gene that has something to do with caring and patience - that's why we are called "care givers" - we give and care.
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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 03:43 PM
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Wow, I've read this with much interest. I went through this with my parents while I was in my 30's and had two little ones - my parents had me "later" in life. (Truly, my kids spent their first 5-6 Christmas's visiting hospital rooms. Why do things always seem to take a turn for the worse around the holidays?) My parents lived with us in an in-law apartment for many years, and I can so relate to what many of you have written. How I wish I had you people to chat with back then!

It's just a terribly stressful, guilt-ridden time. But one thing I'll share that I did learn, is that I had to do what I felt was "right," regardless of what others were doing, and regardless of what others thought about what I was doing. For example, even if siblings weren't doing their share, I could only do what I could - I couldn't "make up" for them. And conversely, if someone felt I was doing too much, or "more than my share," I couldn't change, because I felt I had to meet certain responsibilities to feel peace in my heart.

I have such mixed feelings about those ten years or so... But I do feel I did everything I could humanly do, and I know my parents appreciated what they realized (one had a mostly physical ailment, and one a mostly psychological one). I did what I could out of love and respect, and because I felt it was the right thing to do. But I also had to accept when I could do no more, and make the hard choices.

Good luck Saraho, JJ5, and Vicki. Escargot, you are a wonderful resource. You should be doing this for work now! Take care, everyone.

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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 06:09 PM
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Cluster Headaches...
Please do have a look at www.australianprescriber.com
This is a free and unbiased (NO commercial or other advertising or input) journal, sent regularly to Australian doctors and pharmacists, with the latest medical and drug information.
The latest issue had an article on overuse of medications, and how that in itself can be the cause of even daily headaches.
This may not be the cause in your daughter's case, but it should be eliminated as a cause.
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Old Dec 15th, 2005, 06:47 PM
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This may sound basic, but I would write down instructions/phone numbers for the mother-in-law. That way, if somethimg unexpected were to happen(plane diversion, cancelled or delayed flight)she would know who to call and not panic.
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 05:28 AM
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Dreamer2, I have been doing this since I was in my late 30s too, and am pushing the big 60 soon. And also raised 3 kids, had a business, put 5 people through school including myself for 2 degrees, and did travel.
I couldn't have done the business nor most of the education without my ex-husband- but he bailed because he wanted "to find himself" at 48.

My parents are immigrants and refuse "safe" setups. They won't even accept air conditioning. One doctor at U.of Chicago Hospitals thinks they are the only people he has ever seen that don't take perscription meds, PERIOD.

But believe me, they do get sick. There is stubborn and there is stubborn. And my Dad's Mom also was under my care (was in a Nursing home near MY house) until she was 99 years old.

My Mom's starting to have TIA strokes now, but still has a sense of humor and wants me to call into work sick today so that I can drive 30 miles in a blizzard to make connoli shells.

I probably will.

That's what family means to us.

The burnout you speak of becomes overwhelming when there is heavy chronic conditions which require a lot of periodic hospitalization. Mine are so stubborn that the only time I ever got them into a hospital was when my Dad was still lifting City of Chicago garbage cans with a strangulated double hernia (at 70, yes at 70) and the EMTs forced him to when he fell in the alley.

And money is not an issue, AT ALL. They have enough to be fine if they lived another 50 years. They never spend any.

More and more of us are like the OP in this thread- where is the line? That's the real question.

The resources you mention are good and I have tapped into some in IL. My father goes to a free Seniors lunch every day. He is a deacon for the Church each morning and does have all his marbles. It is HIS choice to live the way he does- not mine. My mom won't move because she goes where he goes, period. And he can walk to his church and his park and facilities etc.

My old Bunco group and bowling team has now become a nurturers' support group. I'm not the only one. The difference is that most of theirs are gone now, but they do listen.

It still falls on one or two people to help those that are "independent" this long. We need to help each other and not pretend that thinks are "status quo" like the ones who just don't get it.
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 06:27 AM
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This difficult-to-solve problem has increased because of people living so long after they reach the point of needing lots of help from either family members or paid professionals. I have friends, a couple aged seventy-five years old, who are looking after her ninty-four year old mother and his ninty-seven year old aunt! I asked the man if this is how he envisioned spending his "golden years." He looked at me wryly and said "My golden years have turned to rust."
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 06:42 AM
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JJ5 - maybe I missed this but learning in your last post "My parents are immigrants and refuse "safe" setups" - explains a lot. While many of their attitudes are common in all elderly, it is usually far more common in immigrants of that generation, my father included.

"safe" procedures, crc's, asissted livings, these are not in their realm - as my dad used to love to remind everyone "my relatives died working the field" or whatever - he would take the prescription from the Dr. and never fill it. It was a running joke ( re: attempt to find humor b/c otherwise we'd scream) the Dr. would give, so he'd be "covered" as doing his job,, knowing my Dad would not take them. During major surgery that was emergency (so my Dad was "taken against his will while unconscious to surgery" as he would tell the story - the nurse went in his room to find him missing and tubes all disconnected and on the floor. They called my mom, everyone was crazy worried, 20 minutes later my Dad got out of a cab in front of the house with just his coat over his johnny and refused to go back. He died working, but interestingly enough drove himself to the door outside an ER which is where they found him.

They had money too - that is not the issue with them. It's just who they are.

It is clear you have the situation in perspective, it is as you say, where is the line. I think you already in your heart know where the line is with them - it is that they are choosing to do things differently than might be preferable for their safety, your peace of mind, because you love them, and their ultimate health. It is realizing you can't make all the choices for someone, can't change their minds, and do the best you can. It is someones choice how to live their life, even until the end - for the most part - the dangerous driving issue and a few others sometimes we have to veto them and be the bad guy - others we have to let go.

You may find one of them, or they may find the other, on the floor some day - and they may be fine with that, because they went the way they really did want to, whether we can swallow that or not.

You may drive over to make cannoli shells; I used to drive to my mom's to bring her to the store to buy pearl onions for her favorite recipe b/c I couldn't just buy them and bring them b/c she always had to be there to remind me how they all had to match up and be the same size to cook evenly - it took, no lie, easily an hour for her to choose them at that age. If we can do it and want to do it, we do - because it is also precious memories for us and for them.

It isn't easy, and it wasn't for me then, like you, with a job and children. And now that my children are grown, I'd love to be picking out onions and helping her cook them, even though it was a huge chunk out of my day.

You said it all (for you, anyway - which is how it was for me too) - 'that's what family means to us.' - so instead of trips on an airplane, you are doing trips to make cannoli's, that take just as long b/c of their slower pace....

Whether there is one child, or seven, it usually does fall on one. My mothers condition ended up being a chronic one for several years, and the burnout was phenomenal. But I wouldn't have done anything differently in retrospect.

You found yourself a long time ago, and what a good person you found! Your family is lucky, you ar lucky to have friends/built in support group that you can talk to/ and I think the line is wherever you draw it that allows you peace of mind.


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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 10:38 AM
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Thank you. It's true- lot's of it has its own reward. There's a lot to be learned from the older infirm, if we only really paused to listen. And it is their peace of mind that is their main business and mine is mine. I think you explained it exactly.

I don't and vickib2 can't either, really expect that "understanding" from a lot of others who don't deal with a loved one in this shaded area and over great lengths of time.
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 10:50 AM
  #71  
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I know the post depression era group (my inlaws and my parents) have opposite views of assisted living/retirement homes.

My parents and inlaws view retirement homes/AL is the place you go to die a lonely death.

Boomers view retirement homes/AL as a smart alternative.

 
Old Dec 16th, 2005, 11:07 AM
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You got it GoTravel ! Now let's just hope there are enough great elder communitites for us to downsize to w/ services - or hey, maybe we'll build our own for fodorites who still want to "go travel" even w/ our walkers and canes !
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 03:26 PM
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Vickib2...

You might already have gotten this advice: The University Of Michigan Hospital in Ann Arbor is simply put, the foremost treatment center for "Cluster Headaches" and consistent migranes. Our family has first-hand knowledge of the relief and recovery they provide such patients.
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Old Dec 16th, 2005, 04:29 PM
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The question of when to give up the car keys (or hide them away, depending on one's perspective) looms as a huge issue for all of us. We've personally had to deal with this with 3 elderly parents.

First a background question: how many accidents/fender benders have you personally caused in the last year? Likely none or maybe one.

The rough guideline that dh has used with many of his patients (and their families) and we used with our parents is that when one has caused three accidents (however slight!) in one year, one has shown oneself to no longer be a safe driver and, as the Times article puts it, it's time to move to the passenger seat.

Parking the car after three accidents in a year, of course, can be easy to decide but difficult to implement, though mentioning the possibility of the next "oopsie" killing someone does seem to clarify the danger to the bereft former driver.

As someone else mentioned, it is wise to plan well ahead for alternate transportation options once driving becomes no longer an option (for all of us!).
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Old Dec 17th, 2005, 03:12 AM
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In our case, the in-laws living 100 miles away had a Protective Service report filed on them as unsafe to be living alone - father-in-law was blind with dementia and mother-in-law just dementia. Father-in-law continued to drive after being declared legally blind - his wife just navigated for him.

We made very frequent visits, sometimes in middle of the night, arranged for all sorts of in and out of home services - which they kept firing. Paid someone to check on them twice a day, etc. They wanted us to quit our jobs, move in with them, and even suggested we let out teenagers continue to live in our home alone (they were not invited to move in with them - too noisy)

One day the police came because father-in-law was arguing with mother-in-law and refused to re-enter the house if she was there. The responding officer was wonderful - and the end of the story is that they went to an assisted living facility near us.

A safe but not that happy ending - we tried for 20 years to discuss with them how they would handle the logistics of aging. They refused to even begin a discussion. So in the end they gave up their opportunity to plan for themselves and someone else had to. I hope we have learned from this story - but I will probably be just as stubborn.
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Old Dec 17th, 2005, 05:13 AM
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gail, your story is not that unusual. Nor is the one of elderly leaving their assisted living arrangements because they dislike them. My daughter has a very much older father-in-law that has done this 3 or 4 times, with much loss of his own funds. He is now a ward of the state, with all real perks and income for the remaining salient choices in his life coming from 2 of his 6 kids. And he was a doctor before the progressive dementia. He is 90 and could go on much longer- his heart and body are strong. My parents would much rather die than be reduced in choices to his.And they are stubborn enough to do it too.

metoo, my Dad hasn't had 3 accidents in one year yet. Still, his reaction time is slow- too slow for the Chicagoland driving in our area. He has given up the expressways altogether, Thank God.

I just happened to read this statistic. escargot says let's hope there are enough assisted living or elderly communities. Well said- and of what quality, when they pay the help and assistants there so little.

There are RIGHT NOW 24.1 million elderly in this category in the USA. By 2040 there will be 84.2 million as a minimum estimate. And do you think all those are going to give up their keys, individual homes, privacy/ independent movement, and individual legal power easily. I don't.

I think the Boomers will fight their mobility and loss of controls even more. The difference will probably be that more of them will be open to discussion and change of living arrangements.

But realistically, the Princess cruise with 800 walkers is not that much of a joke. Right now I read their literature and almost every cruise route has plans for the back to back to back travelogue used by the very handicapped for their 3 month's off between the home care facility and the other "kids's" house. They have all kinds of charts that detail how it is cheaper than assisted living at most levels. And it certainly is much nicer views. One 90 year old gentlemen has been doing it for almost 2 years straight. It would not be my cup of tea under any conditions of possible $$$ or of health. Too dense.

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Old Dec 17th, 2005, 07:42 AM
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JJ5 - exactly! - "think the Boomers will fight their mobility and loss of controls even more. The difference will probably be that more of them will be open to discussion and change of living arrangements. " - However, the Boomers will have to start fighting NOW for changes in the system - transportation, living, medical - and not enough are involved - which is hard to do when it seeems that time is "so far away" - it isn't, it takes years to make changes - which is why I tell everyone - write your rep/congressmen, get involved somehow - joing society of aging and keep up with what's happening and being voted on or not - so maybe some of the changes will be there when it's our turn and we will have the alternatives we want.

Population figures are accurate - the elderly population is going to rise over the top - other problem, past lower birth rates mean less people to take care of us, to be the service providers and practitioners and more people need to consider gerontology and all the related fields b/c they will be needed desperately - so if anyone has any college age kids wondering what careers to consider: they might want to consider degrees in gerontology/elderly studies and becoming the policy makers, practitioners, advocates thru insurance companies, businesses, transportation experts, developers for the future !
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Old Dec 17th, 2005, 07:54 AM
  #78  
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Vicki -- my heart goes out to you, as caring for aging parents is stressful. Their generation tends to believe that health is "something that happens to you" instead of something that can be controlled with a healthy lifestyle.

Like others have posted before me, the driving is more worrisome than the flying. Have you considered giving your husband's parents a Christmas gift of air/train/bus tickets to visit the NC children? Non-refundable of course. If they thought the money would go to waste if they didn't use the tickets, they might be more inclined to use them.

I'm glad to hear that your daughter has had normal CT Scans and MRI's and a neuro workup, because you want to be able to rule out a cerebral anyeurism (spelling?). I don't know anything about cluster headaches, but it would help for your daughter to keep a journal of her life, schedule, diet and sleep patterns, so that when these headaches occur, any possible "triggers" could be ID'd. Good luck and our thoughts are with you.
 
Old Dec 18th, 2005, 08:03 AM
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If all else fails, there is headache clinic in Chicago suburbs (LaGrange PK, I think) that is called Diamond Headache Clinic.

I have heard of people who gave up hope of being pain free- that did have relief after their regimes.
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Old Dec 18th, 2005, 08:34 AM
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Before you sit down and try to talk ANY elderly person into giving up the keys to the car, be sure you have a plan in place to tell them......who will take them to the grocery store and how often. Who will take them to the doctor's office, see the medcations are picked up from the pharmacy. What about dry cleaners, shopping for clothes, taking the dog to the vet and a thousand other things. Keep in mind that one thing that ALL the elderly hate is asking someone for help. Have the solution to their problems already worked out and they may be more able to accept losing the car.
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