To the popping the question post: I wasn't going to reply, but when it became a hot thread I must
Sep 11th, 2000, 08:46 PM
#41
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Yes - Jesus was extremely intolerant of the money changers in the church. It is interesting to note that Jesus condems those who idolize money many, many times more often than those who abused sex. He also was intolerant of those who abused their power and put "law" above Grace.
While we can remember Jesus's intolerance - We must also remember his extreme compassion. Remember the woman who was to be stoned for adultery - He said that the person who was without sin was to cast the first stone . . . and they all walked away in deep shame.
Pride truly is a great sin - For it can make us believe - even if only for a moment that we are worthy of casting the first stone. . . None of us are.
While we can remember Jesus's intolerance - We must also remember his extreme compassion. Remember the woman who was to be stoned for adultery - He said that the person who was without sin was to cast the first stone . . . and they all walked away in deep shame.
Pride truly is a great sin - For it can make us believe - even if only for a moment that we are worthy of casting the first stone. . . None of us are.
Sep 12th, 2000, 05:08 AM
#42
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Mary, God also gave us the 10 commandments. Don't you think he did have in mind that we sorta' need some kind of rules to live by?
Having morals and values, and living by them, means I can't condone behavior that goes against them. That doesn't mean I am judging the person...It means I'm criticizing the behavior. Big difference....
Having morals and values, and living by them, means I can't condone behavior that goes against them. That doesn't mean I am judging the person...It means I'm criticizing the behavior. Big difference....
Sep 12th, 2000, 05:17 AM
#43
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Yep, without rules, laws, right vs. wrong, we would live in chaos. Or would we live at all???!!! Would we cease to exist?
There is a right, and there is a wrong. Sadly, many choose not to follow what's right, and therefore our prisons and jails are full. There are also lots of wrongs that don't put people in jail, but BREAK DOWN society and cause chaos in children's hearts and minds.
There is a right, and there is a wrong. Sadly, many choose not to follow what's right, and therefore our prisons and jails are full. There are also lots of wrongs that don't put people in jail, but BREAK DOWN society and cause chaos in children's hearts and minds.
Sep 12th, 2000, 05:33 AM
#44
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Tiffany, are you honestly suggesting that all of the many other cultures in the world that do not believe in Christianity do not know the difference between right and wrong because they don't read the Bible?
Joe, to expand upon what I was saying in my previous post: I think it is clear that some moral tenets do cross cultural boundaries (i.e. murder is wrong). However, I think the few "absolute rights and wrongs", for lack of a better expression, come more from laws of nature than from any particular religion. Oppression, murder, stealing, etc. are not natural activities for any living thing to engage themselves in. I believe that what we define as "morals" are our interpretations of natural laws and the evolution of those interpretations over time.
In fact, I think my point is validated by your own comment that "if you don't recognize the tenets of any major religion, then you are without a moral compass by your own choosing...you are free to do as you please". Please correct me if I am reading this wrong, but aren't you saying that your morals stem from your religion? And that there are different religions that provide this moral compass?
I don't think you can argue that among the major religions of the world there are many differences when it comes to the definitions of right and wrong. This is what I have been saying all along, that most of what we consider to be a person's "morality" is a result of that person's religion and culture, not as a result of an innate sense of right and wrong.
I would also like to thank you for your civility and thoughtfulness in your replies to the posts on this topic. I think you are probably a very nice person in "real life".
Joe, to expand upon what I was saying in my previous post: I think it is clear that some moral tenets do cross cultural boundaries (i.e. murder is wrong). However, I think the few "absolute rights and wrongs", for lack of a better expression, come more from laws of nature than from any particular religion. Oppression, murder, stealing, etc. are not natural activities for any living thing to engage themselves in. I believe that what we define as "morals" are our interpretations of natural laws and the evolution of those interpretations over time.
In fact, I think my point is validated by your own comment that "if you don't recognize the tenets of any major religion, then you are without a moral compass by your own choosing...you are free to do as you please". Please correct me if I am reading this wrong, but aren't you saying that your morals stem from your religion? And that there are different religions that provide this moral compass?
I don't think you can argue that among the major religions of the world there are many differences when it comes to the definitions of right and wrong. This is what I have been saying all along, that most of what we consider to be a person's "morality" is a result of that person's religion and culture, not as a result of an innate sense of right and wrong.
I would also like to thank you for your civility and thoughtfulness in your replies to the posts on this topic. I think you are probably a very nice person in "real life".
Sep 12th, 2000, 05:47 AM
#45
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My main point has been that the Bible does clearly difine what is right and what is wrong. I have never found in my reading of the Bible, however, any specific passage that clearly states that two committed loving people who want to have a romantic trip to propose marriage is a sin. The Bible simply does not talk about premaritial sex. It does clearly talk about extra-maritial sex. It does talk about promisicuity and prostitution. It does not refer to loving, committed couples who simply have not yet had a formal ceremony.
Please provide the specific Bible Verses that back-up your stance before throwing any more stones.
Jesus condemed the Law spouters - The Pharisees - much more than the woman at the well.
Please provide the specific Bible Verses that back-up your stance before throwing any more stones.
Jesus condemed the Law spouters - The Pharisees - much more than the woman at the well.
Sep 12th, 2000, 10:14 AM
#50
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Grow up Jayson.
*Most* of this discussion has been about general morality, about how society should deal with moral issues. Not should Joe snipe Jane because she's a lesbian, or something.
Granted the discussion was touched off by a specific case, but that's not been the main point.
*Most* of this discussion has been about general morality, about how society should deal with moral issues. Not should Joe snipe Jane because she's a lesbian, or something.
Granted the discussion was touched off by a specific case, but that's not been the main point.
Sep 12th, 2000, 10:19 AM
#51
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This is the dumbest thread I've ever read! What I do and believe is no one elses business in here, just as what you believe is none of MY business! I dont give a flip WHAT you do or feel in regards to your religious beliefs, political beliefs, etc! I dont say this to be mean, but really, I just wanted to know if they guy's proposition went well! Hope so!
Now...back to travel stuff...
Now...back to travel stuff...
Sep 12th, 2000, 10:32 AM
#52
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I'd guess Sharon and Jayson are the types who read the comics in the newspaper then toss the rest, or look at the pictures in Newsweek then put it down.
Some people choose to read the editorials in the paper, the world events news and the science section in Newsweek.
Neither is wrong. But don't assume that because you're in one camp that the others are fools.
Some people choose to read the editorials in the paper, the world events news and the science section in Newsweek.
Neither is wrong. But don't assume that because you're in one camp that the others are fools.
Sep 12th, 2000, 11:43 AM
#55
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You are correct Observer, nothing is wrong with either person. However your analogy fails on the most simplistic level. When one goes to a travel web site that is devoted to one thing: Travel, that is what they expect. Not some half baked argument on morality. End of issue.
Sep 12th, 2000, 02:17 PM
#57
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Boy did this post get out of hand???
We should stick to travel?? This is what we are hear for correct??
People need to mind there own business as to what is right and wrong.. We do not know the situation regarding the guy who is proposing to his girlfriend. What difference does it make? Long as they are happy! We are not in there life. I wish them all the luck and I'm happy for them. I hope it all goes WONDERFUL with the proposal.
We should stick to travel?? This is what we are hear for correct??
People need to mind there own business as to what is right and wrong.. We do not know the situation regarding the guy who is proposing to his girlfriend. What difference does it make? Long as they are happy! We are not in there life. I wish them all the luck and I'm happy for them. I hope it all goes WONDERFUL with the proposal.
Sep 13th, 2000, 07:21 PM
#59
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Wow!
I have not been on this U.S. thread for over a month now, because there always seems to be alot of threads like this one.
I just checked in becausesomeone in Europe site said Fodors has been putting posts all over the various boards today, and I was checking it out.
I don't even know what the original topic here was, since this has seemed to turn into a name calling,insult throwing, who-is-more-moral thread.
But I gather someone/s went on a trip premaritally?
My husband and I went to the Caribbean for a 8 wk trip before we decided to get married.We were both in our early 30's.
Our thoughts were along the line that if we traveled well over a longterm in a totally foreign place for both of us, then we would do well married.
We have been married 16yrs, (one couple who has not suffered divorce due to "shacking up" before marriage)
This idea of travel first worked well for us.
It is not for everyone,
but I would never think to impose my values on another because I think differently than them
And I would not resort to name calling.
By the way,
I consider myself a very moral person.
I don't lie, steal,cheat or hurt others.
I volunteer in our local school, raise funds for the homeless shelter, donate a good amt. of $$ to various local and national charities,,have my parents over for dinner weekly, visit with my mother-in-law, spay all my animals, read to my children AND I vote!
Since this site continues to live up to its usual reputation,
I guess it will be another month or so before I may check in.
So, don't waste your times posting rude replies to me, I won't get a chance to read them.
nancy
I have not been on this U.S. thread for over a month now, because there always seems to be alot of threads like this one.
I just checked in becausesomeone in Europe site said Fodors has been putting posts all over the various boards today, and I was checking it out.
I don't even know what the original topic here was, since this has seemed to turn into a name calling,insult throwing, who-is-more-moral thread.
But I gather someone/s went on a trip premaritally?
My husband and I went to the Caribbean for a 8 wk trip before we decided to get married.We were both in our early 30's.
Our thoughts were along the line that if we traveled well over a longterm in a totally foreign place for both of us, then we would do well married.
We have been married 16yrs, (one couple who has not suffered divorce due to "shacking up" before marriage)
This idea of travel first worked well for us.
It is not for everyone,
but I would never think to impose my values on another because I think differently than them
And I would not resort to name calling.
By the way,
I consider myself a very moral person.
I don't lie, steal,cheat or hurt others.
I volunteer in our local school, raise funds for the homeless shelter, donate a good amt. of $$ to various local and national charities,,have my parents over for dinner weekly, visit with my mother-in-law, spay all my animals, read to my children AND I vote!
Since this site continues to live up to its usual reputation,
I guess it will be another month or so before I may check in.
So, don't waste your times posting rude replies to me, I won't get a chance to read them.
nancy
