To the popping the question post: I wasn't going to reply, but when it became a hot thread I must
 

Message: This post has been on here for 10 days and I have chosen to ignore it. Now that it has reached the status of "Hot thread" I can't ignore it any longer. <BR> <BR>If you are not yet married, why are you going on a 5 day trip? <BR> <BR>Any proposal you make is an afterthought. You've already been there done that....

Yeah, Chris! Inquiring minds want to know! Hope all is well and happy(!) Rain or shine, we're curious cats... <BR>Good luck to you!

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the answer was "no?"

Are you envious ME??? <BR>What is your point??? "been there done that"??? Get with the millenium?? <BR>Why not travel before popping the question??? I don't get it?? plz explain your point exactly??? <BR>

Lily-Seems like couple put the cart before the horse so to speak or in this case the honeymoon before the proposal. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the idea of having the honeymoon AFTER the marriage. IMO, it takes all the romance out of it especially when the couple has been shacking up.

OldFashioned, easy for you to say, if you've never "shacked up" or traveled with your seetheart. Some of us do go on unchaperoned dates or even live and ttavel together before marriage, but we thought being proposed to was PLENTY romantic, thank you very much. You're way in the minority here.

Because I have morals you consider me jealous? I don't think that it needs explaining, nor do I have to justify that my thinking obviously differs from yours. <BR> <BR>You're right, it appears I'm in the minority and that is what is shameful. <BR> <BR>

You know people have a lot of nerve talking about being "old fashioned" waiting till your married. Give me a Break!!! I'm sure 99% of everyone has there I'll call it "honeymoon" before they are married. Who are you fooling. There's no difference in "honeymooning" at home versus "honeymooning" out of town. Please explain the difference between the two?? I'm sure after you received your marriage proposal you'll be "honeymoon immediatley after anyways. Whether at home, out of town, etc...

C'mon now "me". <BR>I think we all see the point you're trying to make. <BR>But you see, it accomplishes nothing to criticize someone after the fact. And for someone without 'traditional values', the criticism won't even register on the radar screen...it just won't resonate for someone living by a different value system. <BR>Go to France and lecture the average Frenchman about the importance of celibacy before marriage and monogamy afterward. But don't expect a polite exchange of ideas. They'll tell you to get lost. <BR>If you want to 'make a dent', get on a teen chat board and try to open some eyes before relationship rules and values are finalized in young minds.

Dear Me: <BR> <BR>You sound a lot like a friend of mine. You aren't from Longmont, Colorado are you?

I'm with those who think a marriage proposal is really silly for a couple who is already shacking up and thinks nothing of traveling together unmarried. Traditional rituals are for those with traditional morals and values. Just because lots of non-virgins walk down the aisle in a white dress and take marriage vows in a church doesn't make it right. And, has anyone every noticed that lots of men ask for recommendations and suggestions, but never report back?

I've got to say I find this post quite silly. I am living with my girlfriend, so obviously I am biased here, but what do morals have to do with it? In any case, marriage is a deeper, more serious commitment than living together, and it is appropriate to give some thought to the proposal even if you are living together.

Statistics show that couples living together before marriage have a much higher rate of divorce than those who don't. Regardless of how common it may be, there is still a difference between right and wrong. However, some people choose not to abide by it.

Since everyone is offering honest opinions I'll throw in mine. <BR>Society needs rules and restrictions to function well. <BR>Humans are born with a sense of what is right and wrong, and whether non-religious people want to acknowledge it or not, I believe all humans possess a sense of morality that is divinely inspired. <BR>Humans also naturally want to take the easy way out, be lazy and ignore the 'rules' of morality because, let's face it, they can be hard to follow and it takes a lot of effort and discipline which must be constantly cultivated. <BR> <BR>The trend in US society is toward moral laxity. It will ultimately be the undoing of our society. But it's a slippery slope and the changes will occur gradually, not overnight. The decline of family values (illegitimate birth rate skyrocketing, kids valuing marriage less), loss of respect for others (road rage, death penalty, abortion), moral decline (Clinton's actions condoned by many, porn everywhere) are but a few examples. <BR>Liberals will criticize me harshly. But when my life is over and I'm accountable for my actions, I'll be assured of peace of mind and spirit, knowing where my future lies. I will feel genuine pity for those who chose to ignore their own innate moral warnings. I don't mean this as a taunt in any way. I mean it literally and respectfully.

Living together is not a way of finding out how married life will be, because married life is shaped by the fact that the couple has made a solemn vow before their family and friends that this is for keeps...It changes everything. <BR> <BR>It's about time we take our civilization back from the moral and social chaos it has developed into.

Am I missing something? I don't recall anyone saying that the young couple was sleeping together, or even sharing a room. Am I to understanding that an un-chaperoned road trip, even if the couple has separate rooms, is morally suspect? Me's assumptions impute the worst (in Me's opinion) to everyone . . .

I take exception (and umbrage) to the suggestion that I'm somehow immoral and have no values because I don't believe it's necessary for everyone to remain virginal until their wedding day, or that dating couples shouldn't take trips together. Give me a break. I'm not promiscuous, I believe in monogamy and commitment. I've been in a monogamous, committed, and happy relationship for longer than most married people my age have even known their spouses. Among people I know, the great majority who lived together before marriage are still married, and the majority of those who did not live together firs' have divorced. Perhaps the statistics cited above simply reflect how seriously people take relationships. I don;t think there's anything wrong with living together, but I consider it a serious commitment, not something you do after dating for a few months. I do believe in marriage as an instituion, and I will be married. But I believe that morals and values are reflected not so much in whther people do everything the "traditional" way, but in how they regard their fellow humans, what kind of commitment they make to relationships, romantic and otherwise, whether they make the needs of children--theirs and others'--a priority (and for god's sake, I'm not talking about all the obnoxious behavior people complain about on this forum, but about emotional and educational needs), and so on. To my mind, what distinguishes people as admirable and highly moral is the respect with which they treat themselves and others, and I beleive that anyone who thinks that a ceremony and promises made guarantees such respect has their head in the sand.

<BR>1. Do you think a couple will "do something" on vacation that they wouldn't do at home? <BR> <BR>2. I usually find that people who preach against pre-marital sex are people who got married incredibly young. I think this is because they were so h---- the only "choice" was marriage. (I think marrying young is MORONIC.) <BR> <BR>3. Don't believe in living together, either, but we did travel a bit before marriage. Spouse and I married in our early 30s and nothing diminished the proposal or honeymoon. <BR>

Dear Caitlin: Thank you for your beautiful response. You've said it perfectly. Kindness to others is where our growth and "holiness" begins. Judgement will not elevate the moral structure of our society.

Judgment is a very tricky thing, Jeanette. <BR>If a society is going to set down moral laws, judgments are inherently necessary. <BR>When you step beyond the concrete limits of statutory issues, however, e.g. whether people are materialistic or narrow minded, it is easy to let inappropriate judgments slip into the forefront. <BR>Personally, I believe the above issues are black and white and that it is not inappropriately judgmental to state that sex with anyone you happen into is not OK