Thank you to those who who have responded to my earlier posting.

It would appear that I have hit a nerve. My request for information was not an attack on the USA or it's customs. Yes, I did say that I find the concept of tipping obnoxious but I did not say that I find the USA obnoxious.

Yes, a person can tip in Australia and no, the concept is not new. It is not new in Australia and not new to me. Having said that, if a person in Australia feels that a tip would be nice, then they tip. There is no sliding scale or percentage mandated or suggested that I'm aware of. Yes, I have tipped and when I do, it is because I want to and not because I am told that I should or that it is expected. If tipping is part of a culture or expected because employers and Governments can't get their act together, why should I, as a tourist be made to feel some obligation to bolster an underpaid persons pay packet. The relationship between a taxi driver and a passenger is not employer-employee nor should it be. Same applies between eater and waiter or hotel guest and any number of hotel employees. The cost of staying in a hotel is quite high all by itself, so why is there an expectation that more should be paid to every man and his dog that works at the hotel? Again, as a guest, I should not be expected to take on the roll of employer or even have to think about it. If the US system is so broken that it shifts the responsibility of who pays a decent wage / salary to it's employees from the employer to a tourist, then clearly it is a bad system and should be fixed. No politics intended.

In conclusion, when I tip, it is because I think someone did something special or outstanding, not out of obligation or fear. If the food is good, the bill should be for the food and nothing more. If the waiter does something more than just bring food to the table, then I may give him or her a tip. If a person makes up my hotel room bed and or turns the bed down, it is their job and what I am already paying for. I pay the hotel for my stay, not each individual who works there. I do not believe that anyone other than the employer should be made to feel any financial obligation or responsibility to an employee of any work place.

I hope I have cleared up any misgivings about where I am coming from and I don't mean Australia.

I would still like to know peoples views on consequences.

Thank you again

Oscar1

Hello, anybody out there?

Why did you start a new thread? It would have been much better to tack this on to your original post . . . . .

meant to add - you don't win friends ordering folks to go look for another thread if they want to see the rest of your thoughts . . . . .

Janisj

As mentioned, this is the first time I have ever used the internet in this way. I have never used a forum or MSN or anything other than email. I must seem pretty thick to regular users. Can you suggest a way I might link the two postings without confusing people or wasting anyones time? I don't want to type out everything again.

Thanks if you can help, thanks if you can't!

Oscar1

PS I don't get the thread bit!

Oscar1,

Perhaps what made some people on the other thread less than helpful was your comment about finding tipping to be obnoxious.

But I can honestly tell you that you are not alone in your feelings that tipping should be based on the level of service received.

In my opinion, tipping is ultimately a very personal thing and is totally subjective. Yes, there are "guidelines" and "norms" in many places.

The people who expect to receive tips know what those are, too.

From experience having worked in several positions where tipping was 'the norm" when someone didn't tip I susually figured they were "cheap" and, believe me, some of them were, or my service to them wasn't up to expectations.

When someone doesn't tip there certainly shouldn't even be any thought of "retaliation.'

There are undoubtedly people out there who would try to intimidate someone into tipping/tipping more. They already know that there is nothing (legal) they can do if you refuse.

I hope your trip is memorable and for the right reasons.

when someone didn't tip I usually figured they were "cheap" I never thought that maybe I gave lousy service, was rude, or otherwise offended the person who should have given me a 20% tip (including on the tax).

Happytrailstoyou,

If you had taken the time to read the entire sentence you'll notice it also included the words, "or my service to them wasn't up to expectations."

Your comment about what I 'never thought' obviously speaks for itself.

I apologize to you, but not to other tip recipients who believe that non-tippers are, of necessity, cheapskates, niggardly, parsimonious, penny-pinching, penurious, stingy, tightfisted, or cheap.

Oscar, you're going downhill.

You say "if the US system is so broken." Uh, because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's "broken." In fact, if an American made such a statement about another country, we'd have to listen to that tired, old charge of being rude.
You got perfectly good explanations behind tipping in the US. If you don't agree, fine. But to assume you know what's "correct" and what's "broken" just seems beyond arrogant.

You are a cheapskate and you keep trying to defend yourself. Stay home, ok?

If you are so offended by it and disagree with it, why ask so many questions? Just do what you want.

If you don't tip, the hotel and restaurants employ guys with thumb screws and big muscles to make you see the error of your ways.

The angry person who wrote, "You are a cheapskate and you keep trying to defend yourself. Stay home, ok?" tells us all we need to know about him.

I'm going to jump on a moonbeam and get out of here.

Oscar, you wrote "If tipping is part of a culture or expected because employers and Governments can't get their act together, why should I, as a tourist be made to feel some obligation to bolster an underpaid persons pay packet. "

Well, tipping IS part of the culture of the US, and part of being a tourist is (or should be) being a polite guest and respecting that culture. That's why you should feel obliged to tip while in the US.

You may find tipping obnoxious - but under our current system it's the only way many people in the service industry can make anythng even close to a living wage.

If the laws were different - and minimum wage was actually enough to live on - and all workers received a minium wage - then tipping could be an extra for extra special service.

But when so many people in the service industries earn practically nothing - the only way they can begin to pay for housing and food is via tipping.

And - I'm not sure that simply switching tipping to a "service charge: wpuld be the answer - since often much of that goes to the owner of the establishment rather than the workers.

So - like it or not - tipping is the system we have. And although not enforced by law - it is - morally and ethically required if you're going to travel in the US. Otherwise you are simply exercising your opinions at the cost of taking food out of the mouths of the children of wait staff, taxi drivers etc. - who don;t have the choice to refuse to serve you.

I am curious as to what others think about this custom: When in Las Vegas and taking a cab from one strip hotel to another, is it really necessary to tip the guy that opens the taxi door for me to get in and then again tip the guy that opens the door at my destination for me to get out? They really have not provided me with any added value - I can get in and out myself no problem and it's not like I have luggage to be loaded and unloaded. Am I wrong to think that tipping either or both or these people is redundant? Especially after I'm already tipping the taxi driver?

It appears by Oscar's second post that his intent WAS to hit a nerve.

Oscar, either tip or don't tip. But realize that if you don't, you will be perpetuating the stereotype of a certain country's tourists, of being cheap, opinionated, and obnoxious.

Well, you did ask about "consequences."

Zabes,

When visiting friends who live in apartment buildings with doormen, I tip the doormen when they open a door for me because I know I am asking for this service when I make visits to their homes.

However, I don't tip people who provide a non-service I didn't ask for, such as in your example.

Now I'll sit back and wait for somebody to let me know why I am cheap, should stay out of cars and taxis, and walk or bike to all my destination.

htty