Tipping Again
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:36 PM
#21
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'll add my 2c here.. I do tip (generously) the person who serves me, depending mostly on the service i receive.. whether or not he/she has any ownership in the establishment... but here's my RANT.. I hate that Starbucks and other same type establishments have a tip jar and its so expected that everyone leave a tip. That to me is where the establishment should be paying the fare wage and patrons not subsidizing. Am I off?
Jun 15th, 2006, 10:41 PM
#23
The rule is that you don't tip Joe at Joe's Bar.
If the waiter/owner is plowing his salary back into the restaurant, then that is simply his idea of a good investment.
Tipping is for personal service.
In the OP's case he could leave a tip and expect/hope/ ask? that it goes to the chef.
If the waiter/owner is plowing his salary back into the restaurant, then that is simply his idea of a good investment.
Tipping is for personal service.
In the OP's case he could leave a tip and expect/hope/ ask? that it goes to the chef.
Jun 16th, 2006, 06:36 AM
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have cruised on Celebrity and ate (early dining) at the same table every night and received wonderful service. So I tipped accordingly. I have cruised on princess where you get a different waiter every night, (anytime dining) The princess waiter could care less about service because his tip is assured and chances are he may never serve you again. This is what I'm talking about. I know that you can see the purser but still. I like to tip but it isn't always an automatic.
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:50 AM
#26
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you, goldilox --- the voice of reason!
Bobrad - back to your original post, I agree with you. Isn't the whole argument "for" tipping that the service person is underpaid and it is an expectation that his/her income is to be supplemented by tips? Forget about that To Insure Promptness theory -- society has dictated that customers owe 20% or more regardless of the service because the employee is so poorly paid. What a situation.
So if the owner is cutting your hair, that entire argument holds no water. The owner can charge whatever he or she wants and keeps it all after expenses. If there is not enough, he can charge more. I don't see why it is necessary to tip the hairstylist. I don't tip my dentist when he cleans my teeth. He sets his own prices too. And some hair stylists charge more than dentists. And according to ME, they are both trained professionals.
But like most sheeple --- I do tip my hairstylist. Society has made us feel insecure about looking like cheapskates if we don't --- so we are blackmailed into tipping to save face.
Bobrad - back to your original post, I agree with you. Isn't the whole argument "for" tipping that the service person is underpaid and it is an expectation that his/her income is to be supplemented by tips? Forget about that To Insure Promptness theory -- society has dictated that customers owe 20% or more regardless of the service because the employee is so poorly paid. What a situation.
So if the owner is cutting your hair, that entire argument holds no water. The owner can charge whatever he or she wants and keeps it all after expenses. If there is not enough, he can charge more. I don't see why it is necessary to tip the hairstylist. I don't tip my dentist when he cleans my teeth. He sets his own prices too. And some hair stylists charge more than dentists. And according to ME, they are both trained professionals.
But like most sheeple --- I do tip my hairstylist. Society has made us feel insecure about looking like cheapskates if we don't --- so we are blackmailed into tipping to save face.
Jun 16th, 2006, 10:16 AM
#27
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Milford 88 whined:
"The problem with that is that I've already gotten the bad service. Sure, my smaller tip might encourage the server to improve or leave, so that the next person gets better service, but that doesn't do me any good."
This is an excellent example of myopic thinking and an inability to view things outside of a narrow box. The flip side of the above example is that there are no doubt many times that a server has improved as a result of others' feedback and tipping, and that you enjoy excellent service as a result of someone ELSE's prior tipping. As mature adults, not everything that we do benefits us directly and immediately. This is a part of our social interaction as humans and making this a better place to live.
As for the original poster . . . if you're determined to rationalize not tipping, nothing that I or anyone else says will deter that. The system is fairly simple--a percentage of the bill for those in service. If you want to complicate it and say what about this job that doesn't have tipping, or what if he is making more money than an average server, etc., then that's your prerogative I suppose. All I will say is that the owner, as goldilox can attest, often makes less than their own employees and might actually need the tip more. I know this firsthand from having worked alongside owners. If they have a bad week, or month, they can't reduce the employees' pay, so it's their OWN pay that gets cut, often to less than that they are paying out.
"The problem with that is that I've already gotten the bad service. Sure, my smaller tip might encourage the server to improve or leave, so that the next person gets better service, but that doesn't do me any good."
This is an excellent example of myopic thinking and an inability to view things outside of a narrow box. The flip side of the above example is that there are no doubt many times that a server has improved as a result of others' feedback and tipping, and that you enjoy excellent service as a result of someone ELSE's prior tipping. As mature adults, not everything that we do benefits us directly and immediately. This is a part of our social interaction as humans and making this a better place to live.
As for the original poster . . . if you're determined to rationalize not tipping, nothing that I or anyone else says will deter that. The system is fairly simple--a percentage of the bill for those in service. If you want to complicate it and say what about this job that doesn't have tipping, or what if he is making more money than an average server, etc., then that's your prerogative I suppose. All I will say is that the owner, as goldilox can attest, often makes less than their own employees and might actually need the tip more. I know this firsthand from having worked alongside owners. If they have a bad week, or month, they can't reduce the employees' pay, so it's their OWN pay that gets cut, often to less than that they are paying out.
Jun 16th, 2006, 12:10 PM
#28
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,708
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not American, but I travel to the US quite a bit and I think tipping has got out of hand.
People mention tipping 25%, before you know it, it'll be 30 -35% as people want to be thought of as being even more generous.
I tip 20% in the US as it is the done thing but I know that my dining experience is a lot different to what I do in Europe or Australia.
Firstly, I don't expect to be in the restaurant that long, usually about an hour as everything comes pretty quick, including the bill if you say you don't want a dessert!
Secondly, I won't buy expensive bottles of wine, as wine is marked up so heavily by the restaurants to begin with. I think there should be some sort of limit on the tip, regardless of the size of the total bill.
In Australia most restaurants adopt the Bring your Own Wine approach, even when they are licensed, they charge a small corkage of $2 - $3. Tipping is not done and you can spend hours at the table with your family and friends, with no pressure from the staff for you to leave.
Its a similar story in Germany, just last Saturday my family and friends met at 2.30 in a restaurant for lunch and to watch the World Cup, we left at 8.00pm and we didn't spend much and just rounded up the bill to the nearest 5 Euro as a tip.
Geordie
People mention tipping 25%, before you know it, it'll be 30 -35% as people want to be thought of as being even more generous.
I tip 20% in the US as it is the done thing but I know that my dining experience is a lot different to what I do in Europe or Australia.
Firstly, I don't expect to be in the restaurant that long, usually about an hour as everything comes pretty quick, including the bill if you say you don't want a dessert!
Secondly, I won't buy expensive bottles of wine, as wine is marked up so heavily by the restaurants to begin with. I think there should be some sort of limit on the tip, regardless of the size of the total bill.
In Australia most restaurants adopt the Bring your Own Wine approach, even when they are licensed, they charge a small corkage of $2 - $3. Tipping is not done and you can spend hours at the table with your family and friends, with no pressure from the staff for you to leave.
Its a similar story in Germany, just last Saturday my family and friends met at 2.30 in a restaurant for lunch and to watch the World Cup, we left at 8.00pm and we didn't spend much and just rounded up the bill to the nearest 5 Euro as a tip.
Geordie
Jun 16th, 2006, 12:25 PM
#29
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it hardly matters what is "right" here. if the owner has become used to getting tips at the regular rate, then you will not have a good experience dining regularly in his restaurant without tipping. if he sees tips as a nice extra that he gets regardless of the rule that you don't tip the owner, then you are ok tipping or not.
there is no way to tell how the owner perceives his tips except perhaps to test it by not tipping or witness someone else not tipping. if the owner expects a tip (ie he behaves coldly or stronger if you don't tip), then you have a choice. either continue to pay the tip extortion or find another regular restaurant.
if it were me and i liked the restaurant, i would just tip as normal figuring that it's not worth the hassle of it all.
there is no way to tell how the owner perceives his tips except perhaps to test it by not tipping or witness someone else not tipping. if the owner expects a tip (ie he behaves coldly or stronger if you don't tip), then you have a choice. either continue to pay the tip extortion or find another regular restaurant.
if it were me and i liked the restaurant, i would just tip as normal figuring that it's not worth the hassle of it all.
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:00 PM
#32
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My understanding of Europe and many other countries is that the tip has already been added into your bill, which is why tipping isn't done there.
Geordie, in response to your belief that there should be a "limit" on tipping, due to high priced wines: are you also willing to have a minimum limit? Or do you think it's okay to buy a three dollar appetizer and sit for hours and then give a couple of quarters as the "20%" tip at the end?
Here in the USA, waiters earn $3.15 an hour. That is not even 4 euros. If you sit at a table for six hours, as you mentioned, and then tip 5 euros, you are giving that server not even 1 euro per hour in tips. How do you expect him to survive on that, given the low wages and the expectation that people will tip 20% and not "freeze up" a table for hours?
Geordie, in response to your belief that there should be a "limit" on tipping, due to high priced wines: are you also willing to have a minimum limit? Or do you think it's okay to buy a three dollar appetizer and sit for hours and then give a couple of quarters as the "20%" tip at the end?
Here in the USA, waiters earn $3.15 an hour. That is not even 4 euros. If you sit at a table for six hours, as you mentioned, and then tip 5 euros, you are giving that server not even 1 euro per hour in tips. How do you expect him to survive on that, given the low wages and the expectation that people will tip 20% and not "freeze up" a table for hours?
Jun 16th, 2006, 07:42 PM
#34
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"This is an excellent example of myopic thinking and an inability to view things outside of a narrow box."
How ironic that budget4me would provide a perfect example of myopic understanding while accusing me of the same.
Apparently, he/she didn't comprehend the rest of my post, which made it quite clear that I was suggesting that no one should have to suffer through bad service while a waiter/waitress goes through a form of training and/or career path exploration ... not the guy before me, not me, and not the guy after me. Rather, the management of the establishment should ensure that all the servers do a good job, in part by paying them appropriately.
Anyway, I don't know why I'm going through this again. I'm sure that budget4me was the only one who found the logic confusing the first time.
I have to point out though, that it was also pretty amusing that he/she explained in a subsequent post that the European restaurant industry works very much as I was suggesting. It must be working OK for them.
How ironic that budget4me would provide a perfect example of myopic understanding while accusing me of the same.
Apparently, he/she didn't comprehend the rest of my post, which made it quite clear that I was suggesting that no one should have to suffer through bad service while a waiter/waitress goes through a form of training and/or career path exploration ... not the guy before me, not me, and not the guy after me. Rather, the management of the establishment should ensure that all the servers do a good job, in part by paying them appropriately.
Anyway, I don't know why I'm going through this again. I'm sure that budget4me was the only one who found the logic confusing the first time.
I have to point out though, that it was also pretty amusing that he/she explained in a subsequent post that the European restaurant industry works very much as I was suggesting. It must be working OK for them.
