Tipping
Oct 1st, 2001, 05:45 AM
#1
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Tipping
Just went out to a nice resort hotel for the week with my wife and kids and have a couple questions about tipping - I guess I am a bit clueless in this area.
I normally handle all of my own bags so I am not used to taking advantage of the bell staff. This trip we had ten bags [one checked piece, one carry on each]. The bell man who took them out of the car wanted a tip. They bell hop woman brought them up to the room wanted a tip.
If I tip a buck a bag that’s $20 just to get them up to the room. I asked them if they pool their tips and they said no…
So what’s the deal – do they both get tipped?
We got a free upgrade to a concierge room. They had some nice food and wine at night. The concierge made one diner reservations - but since the place as deserted - they didn’t have to pull any strings to get us a table. In all they were very nice, but didn’t do a whole lot for us except answer a few questions.
Do we tip these folks - for just being there - or for providing exceptional service? There were five of them – so do you tip the one that helped or each of them? How much should they get?
Last is maid service – again is this a standard thing, you just tip the maid. Or do you tip for exceptional service. What should define exceptional service from a maid?
I realize that this will be a debate – more interested in the opinions of folks in the business and their take on this.
Stash the confused traveler
I normally handle all of my own bags so I am not used to taking advantage of the bell staff. This trip we had ten bags [one checked piece, one carry on each]. The bell man who took them out of the car wanted a tip. They bell hop woman brought them up to the room wanted a tip.
If I tip a buck a bag that’s $20 just to get them up to the room. I asked them if they pool their tips and they said no…
So what’s the deal – do they both get tipped?
We got a free upgrade to a concierge room. They had some nice food and wine at night. The concierge made one diner reservations - but since the place as deserted - they didn’t have to pull any strings to get us a table. In all they were very nice, but didn’t do a whole lot for us except answer a few questions.
Do we tip these folks - for just being there - or for providing exceptional service? There were five of them – so do you tip the one that helped or each of them? How much should they get?
Last is maid service – again is this a standard thing, you just tip the maid. Or do you tip for exceptional service. What should define exceptional service from a maid?
I realize that this will be a debate – more interested in the opinions of folks in the business and their take on this.
Stash the confused traveler
Oct 1st, 2001, 07:11 AM
#2
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Stash,
There was a long debate here, entitled "Tipping Maids in any hotel" - 159 responses! Do a search and sit back and enjoy.
If it were me, I'd have tipped the maid (during your stay - not at the end) and the second bellhop, the one who actually brought the bags to the room, $5-10. There was also an article about concierge services, which basically stated that when they spend any quantity of time on your request, you should tip. A single dinner res would not fall into that category.
Hope this helps!
There was a long debate here, entitled "Tipping Maids in any hotel" - 159 responses! Do a search and sit back and enjoy.
If it were me, I'd have tipped the maid (during your stay - not at the end) and the second bellhop, the one who actually brought the bags to the room, $5-10. There was also an article about concierge services, which basically stated that when they spend any quantity of time on your request, you should tip. A single dinner res would not fall into that category.
Hope this helps!
Oct 1st, 2001, 09:50 AM
#3
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I pretty much agree with joan.
Definitely ~$10 for the bellwoman.
At least a couple bucks for the person who unloaded the car.
Tip the maid.
Concierge did nothing you couldn't have quickly and easily done yourself. Nothing wrong with a courtesy $5, but not mandatory.
Definitely ~$10 for the bellwoman.
At least a couple bucks for the person who unloaded the car.
Tip the maid.
Concierge did nothing you couldn't have quickly and easily done yourself. Nothing wrong with a courtesy $5, but not mandatory.
Oct 1st, 2001, 12:32 PM
#4
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Here's a different view from a country that does not tip.
I, and most Australians, don't sit well with tipping anywhere because it just is not done here and here are my reasons for this:-
You are paying for a hotel with good money and a high price - is it your problem that the industrial laws in your country allow people to be paid low wages so they have to rely on tips? No. That is between the worker and the hotel. If everyone stopped working for these places then they would have to give good wages for workers.
I own a B&B in Australia and I have had many Americans/Canadians/Europeans staying and never have they left tips for good service or even outstanding service - which is what I give a tip for if I get it - so I guess that they expect me to provide my workers with enough money so that they don't have to rely on tips.
I find tipping porters and hotel workers offensive and very like having beggars around in 3rd World countries with their hands out everywhere. I don't get a "buzz" from flashing out my money and giving a tip nor does it make me feel rich.
I pay wages and I don't feel like helping the Marriot and Hyatt hotels et al meet their wage bills - that should be their responsibility.
Finally if you are on business you don't get a receipt for tips and they can be substantial after some time and therefore they are not tax deductable.
JMHO
I, and most Australians, don't sit well with tipping anywhere because it just is not done here and here are my reasons for this:-
You are paying for a hotel with good money and a high price - is it your problem that the industrial laws in your country allow people to be paid low wages so they have to rely on tips? No. That is between the worker and the hotel. If everyone stopped working for these places then they would have to give good wages for workers.
I own a B&B in Australia and I have had many Americans/Canadians/Europeans staying and never have they left tips for good service or even outstanding service - which is what I give a tip for if I get it - so I guess that they expect me to provide my workers with enough money so that they don't have to rely on tips.
I find tipping porters and hotel workers offensive and very like having beggars around in 3rd World countries with their hands out everywhere. I don't get a "buzz" from flashing out my money and giving a tip nor does it make me feel rich.
I pay wages and I don't feel like helping the Marriot and Hyatt hotels et al meet their wage bills - that should be their responsibility.
Finally if you are on business you don't get a receipt for tips and they can be substantial after some time and therefore they are not tax deductable.
JMHO
Oct 1st, 2001, 01:42 PM
#6
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L
Hello!
This is the employees job to pick up bags etc - you have paid for the hotel room and the hotel service and they are employed by the hotel - not by you.
All too often you have to grapple with the bags OR you bags are behind other bags and so they get unloaded but you are not responsible for the person who touched it.
Actually as I said in my first letter I do tip for very good service and that is the only reason so the person who said that she never tips in Australia is not doing the "when in Rome etc" because we all tip if we have good service or something special but it is our choice!!!!!
Hello!
This is the employees job to pick up bags etc - you have paid for the hotel room and the hotel service and they are employed by the hotel - not by you.
All too often you have to grapple with the bags OR you bags are behind other bags and so they get unloaded but you are not responsible for the person who touched it.
Actually as I said in my first letter I do tip for very good service and that is the only reason so the person who said that she never tips in Australia is not doing the "when in Rome etc" because we all tip if we have good service or something special but it is our choice!!!!!
Oct 1st, 2001, 06:59 PM
#7
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Are these posts being selectively edited by Fodors suddenly? There were a couple this weekend where posts within a thread just vanished. Other entire threads vanished. It appears that L has posted something here and I would very much have liked to have read his perspective, gents!!
I'm too tired even to address this issue with you Liz, but briefly, my husband runs a hotel in one of the chains you point out as underpaying staff, necessitating customer tipping. Customer tipping is a way of life in the US for personal service. I honestly have no heart to get into this with you or anyone at the moment, but you can be assured that if wages were increased to compensate for lack of tips, it would be reflected in increased room rates. This is not a hand over fist profit industry. Anyone with shares of Marriott or Starwood can attest to that. And now, Liz, it is so dire in this industry that of Disney's two large hotels, Swan and Dolphin, one has been closed and employees that could be used consolidated, the remainder terminated. Marriott took the staff of 3 and rolled them into one hotel, closing the other two. For how long? We've had to let go a tremendous # of staff, some long time employees all with families, and all good people,...and more cuts coming. And no, there will be no bonus in this family this year. Corporate laid off 5% of their workforce today, in all levels and one that I know of with 28 years experience, a new baby and a husband that fled at the beginning of the pregnancy. It is Ugly, as ugly as I've ever seen it. We are all praying it won't be our necks next. I have virtually no patience with your lambasting the hotel industry here for a practice that extends well beyond hotels and has been a part of the fiber of US business for as long as I can remember. Anyone who provides me with personal service gets a tip. Period. Now L, I hope you can repost whatever it was that Fodors deleted. This is getting out of hand!
Briefly, for Stash...if you are in a resort with a resort fee, that covers many of the tips you are discussing and is there just so you don't feel you are reaching for your wallet every second.
I'm too tired even to address this issue with you Liz, but briefly, my husband runs a hotel in one of the chains you point out as underpaying staff, necessitating customer tipping. Customer tipping is a way of life in the US for personal service. I honestly have no heart to get into this with you or anyone at the moment, but you can be assured that if wages were increased to compensate for lack of tips, it would be reflected in increased room rates. This is not a hand over fist profit industry. Anyone with shares of Marriott or Starwood can attest to that. And now, Liz, it is so dire in this industry that of Disney's two large hotels, Swan and Dolphin, one has been closed and employees that could be used consolidated, the remainder terminated. Marriott took the staff of 3 and rolled them into one hotel, closing the other two. For how long? We've had to let go a tremendous # of staff, some long time employees all with families, and all good people,...and more cuts coming. And no, there will be no bonus in this family this year. Corporate laid off 5% of their workforce today, in all levels and one that I know of with 28 years experience, a new baby and a husband that fled at the beginning of the pregnancy. It is Ugly, as ugly as I've ever seen it. We are all praying it won't be our necks next. I have virtually no patience with your lambasting the hotel industry here for a practice that extends well beyond hotels and has been a part of the fiber of US business for as long as I can remember. Anyone who provides me with personal service gets a tip. Period. Now L, I hope you can repost whatever it was that Fodors deleted. This is getting out of hand!
Briefly, for Stash...if you are in a resort with a resort fee, that covers many of the tips you are discussing and is there just so you don't feel you are reaching for your wallet every second.
Oct 1st, 2001, 07:14 PM
#8
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Liz, the simple point is, tipping is part of the fabric of business in the US. Wages and hotel rates have tipping built into the system.
If you don't want to tip, fine. Don't.
But your attitude is wrong. When you're in another country, you owe it to businesspeople, citizens and government there to follow their laws and customs as best as you can. When they visit your country, they should do the same.
I don't like people smoking around me at mealtime. Would I not be the ultimate fool for complaining in China to the restaurant owner, asking him to clear out an area around my table to make it smoke free?
When visiting holy places of worship in Europe what if I want to wear skimpy revealing clothing and snap photos during rituals? Is that not tremendously disrespectful of local custom? Does that not make me crass and foolish in the eyes of locals?
Do I have the right to visit Australia from Amsterdam and demand that I be allowed to smoke hash in public places? Of course not.
These are extreme examples. But refusing to honor local tipping policy is very much the same as the above in basic principle.
If you don't want to tip, fine. Don't.
But your attitude is wrong. When you're in another country, you owe it to businesspeople, citizens and government there to follow their laws and customs as best as you can. When they visit your country, they should do the same.
I don't like people smoking around me at mealtime. Would I not be the ultimate fool for complaining in China to the restaurant owner, asking him to clear out an area around my table to make it smoke free?
When visiting holy places of worship in Europe what if I want to wear skimpy revealing clothing and snap photos during rituals? Is that not tremendously disrespectful of local custom? Does that not make me crass and foolish in the eyes of locals?
Do I have the right to visit Australia from Amsterdam and demand that I be allowed to smoke hash in public places? Of course not.
These are extreme examples. But refusing to honor local tipping policy is very much the same as the above in basic principle.
Oct 1st, 2001, 07:28 PM
#9
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Olive
I have worked in your hotel industry and I know how it works. I have also worked in the hotel industry in other parts of the world and I do know that elsewhere there is a standard wage paid to employees which is certainly enough so that they are not dependent on tips.
I will say it again - the hotel is the employer not the guest! I will also say again that I do tip for very good service.
I know the hotel industry is feeling the pinch at present - so are we all - but you don't see other areas of industry foregoing their obligations in the matter of paying staff. My husband employees staff but we have to pay them and so do I. What makes the hotel industry expect special treatment.
Furthermore in Australia I don't see all the hotels going under because they actually pay their staff.
I have worked in your hotel industry and I know how it works. I have also worked in the hotel industry in other parts of the world and I do know that elsewhere there is a standard wage paid to employees which is certainly enough so that they are not dependent on tips.
I will say it again - the hotel is the employer not the guest! I will also say again that I do tip for very good service.
I know the hotel industry is feeling the pinch at present - so are we all - but you don't see other areas of industry foregoing their obligations in the matter of paying staff. My husband employees staff but we have to pay them and so do I. What makes the hotel industry expect special treatment.
Furthermore in Australia I don't see all the hotels going under because they actually pay their staff.
Oct 1st, 2001, 07:46 PM
#10
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Gwen
Perhaps if you looked at what you have just said you may see something wrong here...........
When you're in another country, you owe it to businesspeople, citizens and government there to follow their laws and customs as best as you can. When they visit your country, they should do the same.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The point I would like to make is that when people come to Australia we feel that the fact that they have come is important to us and we would like to make them welcome as best we can. You say that "I should feel an obligation to your businessmen" if I go to your country - why? I don't expect guests to be obligated TO ME in fact I feel it is me who is obligated to see that the customer is given the very best of everything I can offer - it is they who are giving me money for the service and goods that I have.
I don't expect people to suddenly learn our ways overnight. If you come to Australia you are a guest here, be yourself - you are not expected to ape the rest of the population. If it was law that would be another thing - it is not. We speak a similar language but would you expect me to learn all your idioms as well?
Perhaps if you looked at what you have just said you may see something wrong here...........
When you're in another country, you owe it to businesspeople, citizens and government there to follow their laws and customs as best as you can. When they visit your country, they should do the same.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The point I would like to make is that when people come to Australia we feel that the fact that they have come is important to us and we would like to make them welcome as best we can. You say that "I should feel an obligation to your businessmen" if I go to your country - why? I don't expect guests to be obligated TO ME in fact I feel it is me who is obligated to see that the customer is given the very best of everything I can offer - it is they who are giving me money for the service and goods that I have.
I don't expect people to suddenly learn our ways overnight. If you come to Australia you are a guest here, be yourself - you are not expected to ape the rest of the population. If it was law that would be another thing - it is not. We speak a similar language but would you expect me to learn all your idioms as well?
Oct 1st, 2001, 08:25 PM
#11
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OliveOyl:
Ideed 3 replys to this thread have vanished. The 1st was from L posted right after LizF's first post. She basically said if you are too cheap to tip carry your own dam bags or stay home but don't stiff the workers. (maybe L was feeling a bit "tired" today too.) This was followed by a reply that said that Stash didn't say he wasn't going to tip but just wanted to know the rules and said to LizF "When in Rome... The third reply person said that he didn't feel obligated to tip the bellhop when he would have had to wrestle his bag from him to carry it himself.
These posts were no great loss but its an interesting example of this new selective censorship on the forum.
Ideed 3 replys to this thread have vanished. The 1st was from L posted right after LizF's first post. She basically said if you are too cheap to tip carry your own dam bags or stay home but don't stiff the workers. (maybe L was feeling a bit "tired" today too.) This was followed by a reply that said that Stash didn't say he wasn't going to tip but just wanted to know the rules and said to LizF "When in Rome... The third reply person said that he didn't feel obligated to tip the bellhop when he would have had to wrestle his bag from him to carry it himself.
These posts were no great loss but its an interesting example of this new selective censorship on the forum.
Oct 2nd, 2001, 03:48 AM
#12
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Olive and YesCensors: This is really weird. I read L's posts too -- I thought the deletions were confined to WTC disaster related posts, and whole threads were being deleted. But to delete selective threads within a post is really creepy - isn't Fodor's understaffed? It takes alot of time to read through and delete only SOME of the posts. What gives, Fodor's?
Olive, my heart goes out to you and yours. I had not heard about these closings and staff cuts, not yet in the local paper that I've seen. Hang in there! I have a feeling that October will bring a return of some of our snowbirds, anxious to get back to relaxing on the sunnyside of the continent...I guess our consolation is: it's still infinitely better to be American in a shrinking economy, than an Afghani trying to find a safe place for eight children. God bless! (Oops they'll probably delete this now that I've mentioned ______...)
Olive, my heart goes out to you and yours. I had not heard about these closings and staff cuts, not yet in the local paper that I've seen. Hang in there! I have a feeling that October will bring a return of some of our snowbirds, anxious to get back to relaxing on the sunnyside of the continent...I guess our consolation is: it's still infinitely better to be American in a shrinking economy, than an Afghani trying to find a safe place for eight children. God bless! (Oops they'll probably delete this now that I've mentioned ______...)
Oct 2nd, 2001, 05:22 AM
#13
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It occurred to me last night after posting, Liz, that you are the same person who was flamed for remarks after the 11th, and I apologized to you for that person's rudeness. If that is the case, you are, in fact, an American, living in Australia and know full well what tipping is about here, making you no better than the ordinary troll.
Last night I skipped a rather important point regarding your position. There isn't an employee here who doesn't make at least minimum wage to start, and minimum wage applies only to the lowest scale unskilled labor...the same wage they would be paid by any other industry that hired them at this level. Further, every employee has free parking, a free all-you-can-eat (including such things as sirloin steak) meal daily, health insurance coverage free for the employee and heavily subsidized for their families including dental, eye, mental health and prescription benefits, plus 401k plans and paid two weeks vacation and sick leave. Do you do the same for yours? Tips help the lowest on the totem pole, maids, but are not necessary for their subsistence. Valet parkers and bell staff actually make enough that their jobs are in high demand. The concierge makes a great salary. A wait person in our 4* restaurant makes 55-$60,000 including tips and works only the evening meal. No one is depending on tips to exist; it is plain and simply, a nice gesture for personal service rendered.
I don't go into my hair salon with the attitude that the salon should pay the hairdressers more so I don't have to tip, nor do I feel that way about restaurants. And whether or not I like that haircut, he'll get his tip. That's life here, always has been, as you are WELL aware. Tip if you want or don't, it's your prerogative, and no skin off anyone's back but the person you have stiffed.
I am quite certain, Liz, that you have virtually no idea what the circumstances are here at the moment, (and that was the basis of the flaming you received previously). I assume people are still traveling in Australia, though you may have lost a percentage of American tourists. Currently there are hotels running single digit occupancy rates and 30% may be the norm. This country has been in an economic downturn for the past year with business travel severely curtailed even prior to the 11th. The 11th simply sent what was already bad into a death spiral. This hotel, a lovely 4*, 4 diamond, won't even meet debt service this year. That has no bearing on salaries however--they are paid what they were prior to the 11th, of course. It's just that there are far fewer of them needed now, and those terminated now live on unemployment insurance, subsidized by this company and every other company in the US. Go whine elsewhere about tipping in the US. Apology rescinded.
Joan, and "yes", the posts I'm aware of having disappeared over the weekend were innocuous, nothing. I've never complained about Fodor's censorship before but what began this is weekend (as far as I can tell) is extremely heavy handed. Thanks for the synopsis of what I missed. By the way Joan, I saw the Caddy convertible, red leather interior yesterday. Beautiful car! (This will probably result in this post being deleted, now.
lt;)
Last night I skipped a rather important point regarding your position. There isn't an employee here who doesn't make at least minimum wage to start, and minimum wage applies only to the lowest scale unskilled labor...the same wage they would be paid by any other industry that hired them at this level. Further, every employee has free parking, a free all-you-can-eat (including such things as sirloin steak) meal daily, health insurance coverage free for the employee and heavily subsidized for their families including dental, eye, mental health and prescription benefits, plus 401k plans and paid two weeks vacation and sick leave. Do you do the same for yours? Tips help the lowest on the totem pole, maids, but are not necessary for their subsistence. Valet parkers and bell staff actually make enough that their jobs are in high demand. The concierge makes a great salary. A wait person in our 4* restaurant makes 55-$60,000 including tips and works only the evening meal. No one is depending on tips to exist; it is plain and simply, a nice gesture for personal service rendered.
I don't go into my hair salon with the attitude that the salon should pay the hairdressers more so I don't have to tip, nor do I feel that way about restaurants. And whether or not I like that haircut, he'll get his tip. That's life here, always has been, as you are WELL aware. Tip if you want or don't, it's your prerogative, and no skin off anyone's back but the person you have stiffed.
I am quite certain, Liz, that you have virtually no idea what the circumstances are here at the moment, (and that was the basis of the flaming you received previously). I assume people are still traveling in Australia, though you may have lost a percentage of American tourists. Currently there are hotels running single digit occupancy rates and 30% may be the norm. This country has been in an economic downturn for the past year with business travel severely curtailed even prior to the 11th. The 11th simply sent what was already bad into a death spiral. This hotel, a lovely 4*, 4 diamond, won't even meet debt service this year. That has no bearing on salaries however--they are paid what they were prior to the 11th, of course. It's just that there are far fewer of them needed now, and those terminated now live on unemployment insurance, subsidized by this company and every other company in the US. Go whine elsewhere about tipping in the US. Apology rescinded.
Joan, and "yes", the posts I'm aware of having disappeared over the weekend were innocuous, nothing. I've never complained about Fodor's censorship before but what began this is weekend (as far as I can tell) is extremely heavy handed. Thanks for the synopsis of what I missed. By the way Joan, I saw the Caddy convertible, red leather interior yesterday. Beautiful car! (This will probably result in this post being deleted, now.
lt;)
Oct 2nd, 2001, 06:02 AM
#14
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Hi, all, and yes, I did post a response to Stash ... it had limited usefulness, to be sure, but to recap, one tips for services received. Period. And if one is confused about this essentially social interaction, one merely declines the service offered. One does not take and then proffer confusion as a shield against paying up! Gosh, how do I untangle myself from these oneisms! I've no idea why Fodors might have deleted my posting ... from my reply I ommitted, for once, any reference to his mom, IQ, or how he might treat his pets. And to the person who has referred to me as a female, as much as I love them all, I ask you to please wise up. Gentle enough? Take care all, and I shall be back in touch in a few weeks. Ciao, for now. L
Oct 2nd, 2001, 07:16 AM
#15
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Hi olive!
I was surprised by your mention of teither the swan or the dolphin being temporarily closed due to the reduction in tourists. I live in Orlando and had not heard this (although I also don't read the papers much!). I checked the Disney site and there is no mention and it even let me price both hotels for mid-October. Perhaps they have re-opened already? Just curious as to the situation...
Kim
I was surprised by your mention of teither the swan or the dolphin being temporarily closed due to the reduction in tourists. I live in Orlando and had not heard this (although I also don't read the papers much!). I checked the Disney site and there is no mention and it even let me price both hotels for mid-October. Perhaps they have re-opened already? Just curious as to the situation...
Kim
Oct 2nd, 2001, 07:42 AM
#16
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Kim...my husband was in Orlando yesterday for a meeting with several of their chains hotels there and this is the news he got while there. Don't know much more about it than that. I am certain that it would be a temporary situation until things ease tourism-wise, and not permanent. If you learn differently I hope you'll post here, please, as I don't want to perpetuate a rumor. He's very good about not passing things on unless he's pretty sure of them, and must have trusted his source, so I took him at his word. Operating a hotel such as either of those is an expensive proposition at best, and in these times, I suppose only having one or the other open made sense.
Oct 2nd, 2001, 12:44 PM
#19
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I have been reading these posts with sadness and surprise at some of the replies that LizF got for her opinion on tipping.
If we in the USA have the expectation that EVERYONE has to conform to our ideas then I would not be surprised if no-one ever came back.
Why are we taking other people's opinions so personally? Cannot we be big enough to take other people's ideas on board and not immediately take a defensive stance. Perhaps there is merit in not having tipping. Have you every thought that maybe it is not a good idea.
Finally calling someone a troll ( a name that they probably do not use and understand anyway) does nothing but damage our already tarnished tourist destination image together with the idea that we ALL are ugly Americans!
If we in the USA have the expectation that EVERYONE has to conform to our ideas then I would not be surprised if no-one ever came back.
Why are we taking other people's opinions so personally? Cannot we be big enough to take other people's ideas on board and not immediately take a defensive stance. Perhaps there is merit in not having tipping. Have you every thought that maybe it is not a good idea.
Finally calling someone a troll ( a name that they probably do not use and understand anyway) does nothing but damage our already tarnished tourist destination image together with the idea that we ALL are ugly Americans!
