Should Grandparents Ask to Join Disneyworld Trip?
Nov 18th, 2000, 12:22 PM
#41
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Beenthere is saying that family feeling is a lower class, outmoded thing, and that things like individualistic self-interest, single-family housing, and breaches between generations is somehow the superior condition. So bad things to be are: immigrants, relatives, co-residents in the same house, connected, old-fashioned -- they lead to poverty, unimaginative thinking, crampling of the younger generation's autonomy.
This is a bizarre and bigoted bit of philosophical illogic and revisionist history that smacks of justifying utterly self-interested behavior. To me, the results of a stunningly destructive level of societal irresponbility, with criminal activity rising on the streets, in the schools, and especially to the board rooms. The idea that we are accountable to anyone else, let alone the survival of the entire species or even the planet, has been so denigrated by the vested interests and spoiled-brat me generations that people like Beenthere would probably nominate Donald Trump for cultural hero.
The entire basis of human predominance on this planet has been its ability to act in concert, as a group, as a social animal. It's only been in the last 2 centuries that the idea of individualism and independence have arisen, largely to challenge those who have acquired too much power without accountability. It's a tension -- between individual impulses and group welfare -- that will continue, but never for a moment think that it is somehow a superior thing that we are less and less connected with family structure. The evidence is strongly to the contrary.
Our cultural tastes for bashing fathers and particularly mothers (esp. mothers-in-law) bespeaks some sort of pathological perpetual adolescence wherein rebellion is the noblest passion.
This is a bizarre and bigoted bit of philosophical illogic and revisionist history that smacks of justifying utterly self-interested behavior. To me, the results of a stunningly destructive level of societal irresponbility, with criminal activity rising on the streets, in the schools, and especially to the board rooms. The idea that we are accountable to anyone else, let alone the survival of the entire species or even the planet, has been so denigrated by the vested interests and spoiled-brat me generations that people like Beenthere would probably nominate Donald Trump for cultural hero.
The entire basis of human predominance on this planet has been its ability to act in concert, as a group, as a social animal. It's only been in the last 2 centuries that the idea of individualism and independence have arisen, largely to challenge those who have acquired too much power without accountability. It's a tension -- between individual impulses and group welfare -- that will continue, but never for a moment think that it is somehow a superior thing that we are less and less connected with family structure. The evidence is strongly to the contrary.
Our cultural tastes for bashing fathers and particularly mothers (esp. mothers-in-law) bespeaks some sort of pathological perpetual adolescence wherein rebellion is the noblest passion.
Nov 18th, 2000, 12:51 PM
#42
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I'm for Marcy taking that trip to Germany and having a great time without imosing on the kids. Sounds as if you all have lots of quality time together and a terrific relationship. Maybe they are working on developing a stronger relationship with their sister/brother-in-law and the cousins. These are very important relationships, especially for the kids.
We have lots of family celebrations and find that when both sets of grandparents are together, it's tense. We do better with just one set of them at a time. We also try to have vacations with our sister/brother/in-law and their kids so that the kids can really get to know each other, and we semi-grown-ups can hang out without our parents.
Since this a year away, perhaps you could gently suggest that they go to
WDW right after Christmas, so that you can spend the holiday together first.
We have lots of family celebrations and find that when both sets of grandparents are together, it's tense. We do better with just one set of them at a time. We also try to have vacations with our sister/brother/in-law and their kids so that the kids can really get to know each other, and we semi-grown-ups can hang out without our parents.
Since this a year away, perhaps you could gently suggest that they go to
WDW right after Christmas, so that you can spend the holiday together first.
Nov 18th, 2000, 02:49 PM
#43
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YouGoGranny-Please save your philosophical debate for another day & board. I am not the daughter in law from hell or likewise as you put it. I merely stated that if Marcy's son did not specifically invite her, they do not want her along. It is obvious to me that Marcy's son and dil, want to spend time with the dil's family. Too often grandparents and in-laws even when they have the best intentions tend to compete with each other. The above poster is right on when she said Marcy should make her own plans.
Nov 19th, 2000, 04:52 AM
#44
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To the person who was calling names, yet did not sign his/her own: I guess I am lucky to have a grandmother, a mother, and a mother-in-law who would not dream on imposing her expectations on her children. I can't even imagine as it has never been the case to have any of them inviting themselves to holiday plans. Oh, and by the way, my husband is an only child.
Marcy' son has a family of his own now. Marcy can rationalize all she wants why she should be invited to their holiday plans and those might be very reasonable arguments indeed. However, this still THEIR holiday plans. If they have decided this year they will spend them with D.i. L's side, it should be left at that. Marcy, you sound like a wonderful grandma, but quite dependent and territorial when it comes to certain issues.
Marcy' son has a family of his own now. Marcy can rationalize all she wants why she should be invited to their holiday plans and those might be very reasonable arguments indeed. However, this still THEIR holiday plans. If they have decided this year they will spend them with D.i. L's side, it should be left at that. Marcy, you sound like a wonderful grandma, but quite dependent and territorial when it comes to certain issues.
Nov 20th, 2000, 04:35 AM
#46
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I think Susan has nailed it! The son's family wants to build/strengthen relationship with the other side. Marcy, you are sounding a bit more insecure with each passing message.
I see this with one of my friends. They have no children, but are constantly battling between his and her families about time spent, money spent, etc. It's really sick.
I see this with one of my friends. They have no children, but are constantly battling between his and her families about time spent, money spent, etc. It's really sick.
Nov 20th, 2000, 05:55 AM
#47
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Marcy,
My nuclear family has been asked by both sets of in-laws on several occasions to join us on family trips. I have certainly never been offended by the request. For several trips, a group trip made sense and was easily accomodated. On one trip, it simply wasn't possible. Unfortunately, it was that one trip, that my husband and I received a very negative response from my in-laws and a long period of ugliness between our families. If you are prepared to really hear and understand their reasoning for including or not including you in this trip without long-term hard feelings - I say go for it. With understanding and thoughtfulness - no real harm can come just from asking.
And for the posters above that claim that no one holds responsibility for other people feelings - Baloney. While we are the only ones in control of our personal feelings - It is always our responsibilty as humans to care for the feelings of others. To do otherwise, would be to inflict uncaring and thoughtless harm to others. Just as the golden rule says - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. None of us want others to take our personl emotions or feelings for granted - and therefore, we should not take others' emotions and feelings for granted.
My nuclear family has been asked by both sets of in-laws on several occasions to join us on family trips. I have certainly never been offended by the request. For several trips, a group trip made sense and was easily accomodated. On one trip, it simply wasn't possible. Unfortunately, it was that one trip, that my husband and I received a very negative response from my in-laws and a long period of ugliness between our families. If you are prepared to really hear and understand their reasoning for including or not including you in this trip without long-term hard feelings - I say go for it. With understanding and thoughtfulness - no real harm can come just from asking.
And for the posters above that claim that no one holds responsibility for other people feelings - Baloney. While we are the only ones in control of our personal feelings - It is always our responsibilty as humans to care for the feelings of others. To do otherwise, would be to inflict uncaring and thoughtless harm to others. Just as the golden rule says - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. None of us want others to take our personl emotions or feelings for granted - and therefore, we should not take others' emotions and feelings for granted.
Nov 20th, 2000, 10:15 AM
#48
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YoGoGranny-I'll say what I mean rather than you interpreting for me. "Don't think you can hold my opinion in your tounge or keyboard" (C).
My words were based on studies I learned as an undergrad. No intent to bash or sound positive about any group or thing. They have been reinforced through my own experiences. As far as your conclusions to my words, they don't represent my opinion. It is wrong to say being an immigrant is bad. Stop that now. If you want to know how I think, ask.
Look at Allentown Pa. as one place to observe the dynamics of rapid change. Without even casting a plus or minus - so don't even go there - the town has observed many changes. I offer you the chance to look there.
We should all be so lucky to have a loving and caring family. There is no force greater than love. Families promote and foster love. That is what I think, not the words you chose to interpret for me.
My words were based on studies I learned as an undergrad. No intent to bash or sound positive about any group or thing. They have been reinforced through my own experiences. As far as your conclusions to my words, they don't represent my opinion. It is wrong to say being an immigrant is bad. Stop that now. If you want to know how I think, ask.
Look at Allentown Pa. as one place to observe the dynamics of rapid change. Without even casting a plus or minus - so don't even go there - the town has observed many changes. I offer you the chance to look there.
We should all be so lucky to have a loving and caring family. There is no force greater than love. Families promote and foster love. That is what I think, not the words you chose to interpret for me.
Nov 20th, 2000, 10:28 AM
#49
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Marcy, find yourself a nice quiet spot
& reflect upon this: there is a reason why they did not invite you. You have to accept the fact that your son & dil have chosen to do the WDW thing without you. Now stop trying to control! I am wondering if there have been past
events where your son & dil have done things "Marcy's Way" so as not to have to deal with what you are doing here:
Namely, telling them what you think they shd. do instead of allowing them to do things 'their way'. The fact that you have launched this discussion tells me that you need to have your views propped up. You KNOW that to invite yourself is the wrong thing to do but you are hoping to find people who will tell you it's acceptable. Well, it's not!
If you push on this your son & dil will
resent it & this cld. cause them to seek more (not less!) distance from you.
And, for those of you who have Norman Rockwell Christmas's dancing in your heads, cut it out! Every family has its own dynamics/conflicts/history & it
oversimplifies Marcy's situation to say
that people shd. appreciate their family, etc., etc. The fact is they did not invite Marcy. So accept it & get on with life!
& reflect upon this: there is a reason why they did not invite you. You have to accept the fact that your son & dil have chosen to do the WDW thing without you. Now stop trying to control! I am wondering if there have been past
events where your son & dil have done things "Marcy's Way" so as not to have to deal with what you are doing here:
Namely, telling them what you think they shd. do instead of allowing them to do things 'their way'. The fact that you have launched this discussion tells me that you need to have your views propped up. You KNOW that to invite yourself is the wrong thing to do but you are hoping to find people who will tell you it's acceptable. Well, it's not!
If you push on this your son & dil will
resent it & this cld. cause them to seek more (not less!) distance from you.
And, for those of you who have Norman Rockwell Christmas's dancing in your heads, cut it out! Every family has its own dynamics/conflicts/history & it
oversimplifies Marcy's situation to say
that people shd. appreciate their family, etc., etc. The fact is they did not invite Marcy. So accept it & get on with life!
Nov 20th, 2000, 11:59 AM
#50
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Susan, you've said it pretty accurately. And I don't think even one person has raised another important point. Have you ever tried doing WDW with these many people? You'd always be waiting for someone's bathroom or drink stop etc. etc. Most of the time we have to split up into smaller groups in order to make the rounds in any kind time constraints (as Fodor's advises.)We are a close family and do NOT have to spend all experiences in each other pockets. I don't get to see 3 of my children from June to August for a number of reasons. We are as close as adults can be with so many different inputs / demains/ adventures going on in our lives. Have a girlfriend who does some very similar manipulations and questioning. I love her but she also can not see the forest for the trees. Her daughter did not let her own mother know she had cancer because she didn't want to deal with the "over-closeness" that the revelation would bring back into her life. Love your grandchildren but do it on your own time and let them come to YOU. My Italian mom (80 now) taught us all to know a wonderful independence and self-reliant durability by never "chasing" us. MAKE YOUR OWN FUN, Marcy, and you'll know the joys of family MORE in the long run.
Nov 20th, 2000, 12:07 PM
#51
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Not to be rude or anything, but please stop this thread. It is becoming the all-time most excrutiatingly boring issue ever. And really, you're stretching the Fodor guidelines beyond recognition. Surely you must by now have all the possible enlightenments about grandparents available in the known universe, with your speciality of GP's in WDW. Eligible for Ginnis, I would think. You have generated over 40 responses. Put them in a notebook for ready reference, and leave this site to some travel news. I just cannot tell you how silly this nauseating, mini debate has become. Help - I'm losing my senses, the little that remain. Please, Fodor's editors, take all their names and then ban all the respondents from the site. Going to WDW is bad enough, but with grandparents. Check the other thread about the guy who spent $11,000 at WDW. You guys both deserve each other. Scotty, beam me up!!!
Nov 20th, 2000, 12:12 PM
#52
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Sorry that is demands not demains, where ever that word came from. Arthritis is horrible in my hands today and brain also not working too well. Snowing and COLD in Chicago. Looks like a pattern and that visitors may get a white Chistmas here this year. HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all, and hope those who are traveling- have safe journies.
Nov 20th, 2000, 12:25 PM
#53
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This should be my last post on this subject. Let me say again that I appreciate all responses, pro and con, to my question, and I thank you!
And I do want all of you who keep saying, "You're not invited", that once a year, at least, my son and daughter-in-law, on their own, bring up what "we're" going to do for Christmas, and THEY said they'd always be with us on Christmas Eve/Day. THat's why I was surprised at the conversation on the video.
Now I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm not going to even bring up the subject. If they do tell us they're proceeding with plans for such a trip, I will ask if it's possible to leave on the 26th of Dec. so we can have the usual Christmas celebrations together. And then I will graciously accept their answer, whatever it is. If they should INVITE us, we will say yes, but spend at least 60% of the time on our own pursuits. If they don't we'll have a good holiday on our own.
Thank you again for all your opinions.
Marcy
And I do want all of you who keep saying, "You're not invited", that once a year, at least, my son and daughter-in-law, on their own, bring up what "we're" going to do for Christmas, and THEY said they'd always be with us on Christmas Eve/Day. THat's why I was surprised at the conversation on the video.
Now I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm not going to even bring up the subject. If they do tell us they're proceeding with plans for such a trip, I will ask if it's possible to leave on the 26th of Dec. so we can have the usual Christmas celebrations together. And then I will graciously accept their answer, whatever it is. If they should INVITE us, we will say yes, but spend at least 60% of the time on our own pursuits. If they don't we'll have a good holiday on our own.
Thank you again for all your opinions.
Marcy
Nov 20th, 2000, 12:32 PM
#55
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Lone-This does not violate Fodors policy, is travel related and furthermore Fodor's will not delete it. If you don't like it--don't read it!!!
Jeannette-Your Grandmother sounds wonderful. I wish more parents could be like her and not controlling.
As for Marcy-At this late date, you will be hard pressed to get flights etc to go anywhere. But, I agree with the majority here, make your own plans.
Jeannette-Your Grandmother sounds wonderful. I wish more parents could be like her and not controlling.
As for Marcy-At this late date, you will be hard pressed to get flights etc to go anywhere. But, I agree with the majority here, make your own plans.
