Rainforest, you asked a good question, and I'm glad this has moved on from simply how annoying panhandlers are, but one also has to consider how easy it is to get jaded. I encounter several panhandlers a day (and have for many, many years) from the guy who I sometimes have to kick off my front stoop when I leave my apartment to people on the subway, etc... it becomes very difficult not to get jaded, and I know that I have. I know the stories and even names of some of the homeless guys in my neighborhood, and many of them have been offered help, and even have homes they refuse to go to, there is one local guy who has been taken to the hospital many times for a medical condition he has, but refuses treatment ‘preferring’ to sleep in my alley (just a month ago I had to call the police because a drunk guy passed out on my stoop blocking my door so I could not get into my house and would not move no matter how much I yelled and pleaded ... he was fine, when the police came he 'woke up'). While I support charities and even sometimes do volunteer work to combat these problems, and know to a point from whence these problems came, for those who live with this as part of our daily lives, it is a shameful struggle sometimes to not make these poor souls invisible, and I don’t always succeed.

Not really social commentary, but a quick update on Bush Man.

Was entertaining friends this wknd & we took them to see the tall ships in port. Also saw the street performers and the Bush Man. I'm here to say that the SF Bush Man is alive and well in 2005!

Very nearby, he is being imitated by another man. There was a near altercation yesterday around 7pm as Bush Man was challenged to fight by the imposter. Bush Man remained seated on his milk crate, kept his cool, and retrieved his dictation recorder from his coat pocket to record the imposter as he was being verbally harangued.

With his other hand, he then began dialing on his cell phone. This caused the imposter to pack up and leave. As he did, he threw his cup of soda onto the Bush Man's jacket. Still cool, he deflected the racial epithets which were spat upon him by a man of his own race. Amazing way of life for the street people.

I believe that Bush Man is not so bad off, financially. He also seems to have a net of protection that is only a phone call away.

Nearby, a gull dive-bombed a pigeon in an attempt to wrest it's food away.

I'm comfortable with Darwinism applied to the human race.

Just have to jump back into this discussion.

Please ask yourselves, who is really the most compassionate - those who enable the meager existence of the agressive panhandler - or those who contribute to social programs to help those who ask for help.

Tough love isn't always pretty.

I would rather give $10 to a shelter program than 10 cents to a questionable panhandler.

rainforest, you asked a very good question about where are the social programs. About twenty five years ago we thought that institutionalizing mentally ill people was cruel and backward, so they were allowed to go there own way. The State Hospital in Minnesota (for mentally ill people) housed about two thousand people in the late 70's, Now it is empty. They have been left to fend for themselves in the name of "let them live their lives". Many of them ended up homeless and walking the streets. I think it was a social mistake.

Last year our MN legislators allocated 7.5 million dollars to have the state hospital torn down.

jorr -- true, this had a huge impact on the cities where a lot of these people ended up on the streets. I recall Uptown in the 1980's (a section of chicago) was hit quite hard with a mental unstable homeless population after this happened.

We had similar experiences on our last trip to S.F. Very agressive, not just asking but following and boardering on harassment. By nature I am caring and try to remember that we all have needed a little help in our lives and when things are "good" we should try to give others a helping hand. But in these circumstances how do you decide whose on the level? B.F. works downtown Chicago. Every morning he passes a man holding a sign "Needs Food." B.F. one morning decides to help the guy out, purchases a breakfast sandwich and coffee at McD's. He hands it to the man who wouldn't take it and wanted money only. I don't know what the answer is but it makes me sad.

It's a mess and getting messier. It does seem Newsom's Care not Cash program is helping a bit.I do not give cash to panhandlers but do support places that provide transitional housing and prenatal care. Drug counseling and detox services are available albeit not in the numbers that are needed but available.

Did anyone else read that extended article in the NY Times a few years back that looked at who the AFDC recipients were? There was a great % of women on AFDC who had been abused as children and had significant PTSD. I don't agree everything could be solved if folks just "pulled themselves up by the bootstraps".

I think the economy is making things worse all over. Our little neighborhood is being hit by burglaries left and right.

Hi PamSF, maybe you can answer a question I have had for a long time as you are more knowledable about the situation than I am.

Although I have not seen them for quite some time for, for say 3 to 4 years there was a woman (the mother I assume) with a little girl in the Union Sq. area. They were always sitting on a filthy blanket from early morning until the sun went down. The mother appeared mentally ill and probably on drugs too. The dear little girl was so sickly looking and very filthy. The mother had a cup for donations. There was often a pathetic little dog on the blanket also.

The little girl would sometimes have some food, a hamburger, candy bar or crackers etc. She would put the food directly on this horrible germ infested blanket.

A family member would try to give the little girl some food such as a banana, apple etc (from the lunch she brought to work with her) but the mother would get very aggitated and this dear little girl would hang her head and shake her head "no" to indicate she could not or did not want to take it.

Now, I personally have seen policemen walk by more than once and they completely ignored the situation.

Pam, why did children services not get involved? That has always bothered me.
I never have understood.

Imagine the child in now a tween or teen and if in SF is involved in "heaven knows what".

If children services can go into homes to check up on reported child endagerments reports why can't they do something like situations like this?

Thanks for any thoughts or information you may have. Take care.

If that (above Love Italy's post) happened in Chicago, I believe that DCFS would be out there in a couple of hours.

All police, social workers, professional psych. etc, and even some volunteer workers are obliged by law to report a violation. This kind of begging using a child as a shil, like assault or any hands on hitting/shoving of a child would be reportable. There is an oath taken in the Soc. Services Dept. Don't know if all do live by it, but I do know I got pretty sick of calling DCFS.

A report doesn't mean removal, but it would led to investigation. Doesn't sound like anything is investigated in this case.

Hi JJ5, I am most interested in your comments. I know in my city the response would be immediate.

This thread, and typing my question to PamSF has brought up a bunch of emotions for me. I can remember that little girl like it was yesterday. What is the name of the artist that that had the pictures of the very big eye children, sorry I can't remember. That is how this darling child looked.
I think she was older than she looked, due to malnutrion and her pathetic life.
And why didn't I DO SOMETHING. I wish I knew.
I am not looking to excuse myself but the fact that the PD did nothing left me with the impression that there was nothing that could be done. And I was always going from one business appointment to another. But no excuse I know. So a sin I will live with forever. This child will haunt me forever.

Thank you for not critizing me JJ5, I truly appreciate it, as I am critizing myself to this day. Hugs to you.

You should not berate yourself. If the call had been made, that is still no guarantee that much would have been altered.

In fact, sometimes the juvenile has worsened conditions resulting, because of the angst of the parental perception concerning the investigation. This especially may happen if they are really mobile and there is no one to follow through on living conditions at one location. But sometimes, if repeatedly being reported, there may be a lawful separation to DCFS facility or foster care.

If you see something like this, you don't need to make a scene. Just make a phone call. They will know the law and what is possible where they are and at that time.

JJ5, thank you for your comments. Take care.

As the original poster of this message, I see it hit a nerve. I did not at any time feel threatened, but, yes, they were very "in my face." No, I never give money to panhandlers. I also never give money to charities when they solicit me. I understand the societal implications of "eradicating" the pandhandling "problem." They move elsewhere. I get it. I was just surprised and appalled at the prevalence. I guess the above comment is also correct. NY still has it's street people, but they are not at all aggressive. Just some thoughts.

LoveItaly~I don't know why the child was not removed from that situation except to say there are so very many underserved children. The sad state of things is CPS is swamped and cannot review every situation as in depth as it deserves.There are also some rather strong family reunification laws and guidelines that will attempt to keep kids with their families as much as possible. I've seen kids go home to situations where you've really got to wonder. For instance, why if all prior children have been removed from the home can a woman take a newborn home with her???

It's an emotional issue for certain. It is a crime I think that children are so underserved in the richest country in the world.

Hi PamSF, thanks for your comments and thoughts. I am sure you saw the recent article in the SF Chron about the 3,000 children that live in the Tenderloin and what they deal with day in and day out. So troubling.

When I lived in San Antonio I saw homeless people wearing heavy winter cloths pushing grocery carts loaded to the gills in the heat of the summer. Someone explained to me that they may have a specific type of mental illness which causes this behavior. I also wondered if they had been refusing help from people who tried to get them off the hot streets and into a shelter. It looked really sad. I suffered a heat stroke once and I can not imagine how they can survive under all those cloths.

jorr, most wear the clothes because it is the only way they have of protecting the garments they "own". If its off, it's only a matter of time before another will emancipate it. To many the shopping cart is their closet/pantry.

But aside from any mental illness, many have conditions that may make them "feel" very cold, and they are not going to experience the heat as you would. Some addictions and oudoor living conditions both cause physical changes that do this, and especially in combination.

My AZ relatives that have passed needed mid-weight jackets in Chicago during a Sept. 65-75 degree spell. With them it was just acclimation from Bull Head City climate, and circulation problems with age. I would have been dying from heat prostration with the kinds of clothing they had on.

In San Antonio, I would suspect it would be more that it was needed at night and they didn't want to lose it more than anything though.

Jorr, when I was carpooling to work, there was always the same nice elderly panhandler, so I talked to him while waiting for my car to arrive.

He said he doesn't go to shelters as they are run by criminals out of jail. He was afraid to sleep there. He seemed to be an alcoholic, just an addict without mental problems. It was in San Francisco.

A year later I met him on a MUNI bus all cleaned up, reading a cooking book, he enrolled in a program for homeless to go to work.

As for people with mental problems seeking help... how often a mentally sick person admits or understand s/he is sick? No, they think everybody around them is sick, not they.

If you are so inclined, please check out your local shelter and see how you can help.

Many shelters provide tutoring and mentoring programs for children, who because of poverty and mobility, are at a greater risk for learning and emotional disabilities.

In addition to social reform, you can help break the cycle by offering your time, energy, talents and compassion to help these kids.

This is not just occuring in urban areas. I see it all the time. Homelessness in the surburbs is a well-hidden dirty little secret which must be exposed and eliminated.