questionmotives

Um,no...it's the fact that your space is being infringed upon. You are paying to occupy an already cramped space within an aircraft. When the body mass of a fellow passenger intrudes upon that space, it's unfortunately an issue.

Few overweight people today are overweight due to medical conditions. They are overweight due to lifestyle choices.

ahhnold

Maybe they should charge people with loud voices more. What about taller people that block your ability to get out of the seat to use the lav?

This is so stupid, give it up people.

atilla

You missed the point completely. I am not implying that OW people are that way due to a medical condition, that has nothing to do with what I am saying. The point is, the level of tolerance that people exhibit is determined in a discriminatory manner. If you would make concessions to a disabled person, why not display this same kindness and compassion to one who is OW? Well, I am sorry to say it is because some of you find it repulsive and for that reason you can justify behaving in a childish, rude manner, thus, discriminatory.

starbuck1105

I'm always interested in what people consider to be "overly large." I'm large, no doubt about it, but what is "overly large?"

I stand about 5'10" and weight just shy of 300lbs. Like I said, I'm a big guy. That said, I'm able to sit in an airplane seat without "spilling" over into the seat next to me, and I don't require the use of a seat-belt extender. In fact, I usually have 2-3 inches to spare.

Now granted, I usually do find myself occupying the "shared" arm rest, if its available. But isn't that a common experience for just about everyone who flies in coach?

I've never had anyone (passenger or airline worker) say anything to me about my weight, so I'm not sure how I would respond if something was said or if I was asked to buy another ticket.

I do think the airlines need to put a universal policy in place (at the time the sale is made), as I've heard way too many horror stories about overweight people who arrived at the airport, only to be told at that moment that they needed to purchase an extra ticket at a cost of $XXX-$XXXX, which they may not always be able to afford. Maybe the airlines need to start saying at the TIME OF PURCHASE that if you are over XXXlbs, you need to pay an upgrade fee for a larger seat or buy an extra seat outright. That way, if the passenger lies about their weight at the time of the purchase, it puts the onus on them and if they arrive at the airport and are told they can't fly, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Frankly, I get far more irritated with the folks who routinely haul excessive or oversized carry-on bags on to the plane.

Tansy

If the woman next to you on a plane put her purse on your seat, tucking it between your body and the armrest, would that be okay? What if the guy next to you did the same thing with his briefcase?

I paid for my seat. ALL OF IT. Keep your excess baggage, fleshy or otherwise, off of my seat. If you need more room, pay for two seats. Do not penalize me because I am not oversized.

Cassandra

There would be no problem, or at least much less of one, if the airlines hadn't shrunk the seat size to truly punishing dimensions and crammed the seats together in a configuration we wouldn't put up with in any other context -- not a movie, not a classroom, not a train, not a bus, not a taxi, and certainly not our homes.

It's also a quirk of history that they did so just at the time that the proportion of Americans who have become "supersized" has substantially risen.

The anger I detect here is misdirected, or at least very much imbalanced. If you examine the logic, it's that slender people who fit the smallest seats and smallest spaces that have EVER been installed in flying machines are willing to put up with the tightness -- because they can -- in order to have cheap airfare, but then they feel entitled to be angry at heavier people as if they had no right to fly in these tiny seats.

My stance on obese and/or "huge" people paying for two seats is that it's not a civil rights question so much as a matter of the inhumanity of the airlines in treating their clientele like overnight express packages. I'm very short and take up quite a bit less space in my seat than the "average" passenger (I think-- but see below), and I am very uncomfortable with headrests that push the top of my head forward and cramp my neck from looking down through the whole flight! Shouldn't I pay less, since I take up less than an entire seat?

About that "average" passenger, btw -- I think if you calculated the average height, weight, and height:weight ration, you would find the "average" passenger is really just a bit too large for the "average" coach seat and pretty much hates the ride. Taking it out on the larger person next to you is definitely missing the mark.

Tansy

I certainly agree that seats have gotten smaller, too small, and the airlines should increase the size of seats instead of squeezing every last penny out of the plane's real estate.

However: I argue that even if the airlines had NOT made seats smaller, there would still be many people who are too large for the coach airline seats. Americans (in particular) have gotten too large, no two ways about it.

Let's have signs in airports like those found at amusement parks:

"Must be less than XXXX lbs to ride."

Elizabeth

I really am ill at ease with any ides of "blaming" or "punishing" large people. I don't think anyone knows "why" someone's body is large, and I observe over and over that it seems to be kind of okay, in some quarters, to stigmatize big people, make offensive comments about them, etc., where it (happily) has become unacceptable to make abusive remarks about many other groups.

I don't think an airpline policy asking a large person to pay for more space is "punitive," I don't think it's based on the idea of "punishing" such people.

I think it's legitimate for travellers to be protected from having other people's bodies touching theirs during their flights.

I believe the actual Southwest policy is to ask the person to pay for two seats only if the flight is too full for him/her to br provided with an extra seat. At least this was the policy originally, and it seemed fair to me. I don't object to the idea of the large person taking on the responsibility of finding a less-full flight when possible.

I also agree with the suggestions here that airlines have a few bigger seats on a flight that can accommodate bigger people, or 3-seat rows that can be altered to 2-seat rows.

sundowner

I'll never forget sitting on a SW flight watching the people board. There was this huge man walking down the aisle towards the back of the plane. (I had seen him driving around town before and he was so heavy his car tilted on the driver's side.) A little while later I saw him come back up the aisle and leave the plane.

I haven't thought about it in years but now that this topic has been brought up I remember it clearly. I always wondered why he left the plane. Did he not fit in the seat? Did anyone even think of buying two seats back then? I was really sad for him because he must have had a trip planned and did not get to go.

However, as bad as I felt for him I do not want to "share" my seat with someone that won't fit in theirs.

johncharles

Beautifully said, Cassandra, a few posts above. You have not only hit the nail on the head once, but pounded it home.

cigalechanta

Why can't everyone just say the seats are too small instead of bashing overweight people.If any of you had an overweight person in your family, I doubt you would make some of these remarks or even if you would gave your real names. It's easy to be critical, insulting, and impatient when you are anonymous. After saying that-yes it is unconfortble to be overweight nd I'm sure they know it and may only travel for funerals, etc, at least some.But insulting remarks do not help. A fat friend told me it made her eat more.

GeBo

Questionmotives says above: "Few overweight people today are overweight due to medical conditions. They are overweight due to lifestyle choices."

This statement is simply ignorant of the whole trend of medical and scientific research in this area since the discovery of a gene for leptin about ten years ago. Here's an excellent review of the subject: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...20/ai_54174555

....as well as the discovery of an what appears to be an obesity-causing virus, implying the possibility that the "epidemic" of obesity may be in significant part an actual viral epidemic, not all that different from the AIDS one. http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/07/28/fat.virus.ap/
and
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/S...besity497.html

Just within the past week, Medicare has redfined obesity as a disease, and, as the president of the American Association of Endocrinologists noted with approval, "not just a lifestyle or habits issue." http://www. technewsworld.com/story/35173.html

Yet questionmotives and others continue their oblivious assertions that this is a "lifestyle" issue, ignoring (or not caring to learn)what current science says, and people continue to disdain other people based on this misinformation.

Yes, it is also medical knowledge that nearly everyone can lose weight through better diet and exercise, and those habits and lifestyle are recommended. That's all valid, but a separate matter. It's distinctly different from saying that a person who is fat became fat because of the failure to do these things, or refusing to recognize that a person may follow these behaviors, lose some weight, but still be fat now, and continue to be fat.

With the same "lifestyle and habit" choices, some people will become fat and others won't. Some people who are fat and improve their "lifestyle and habit" behavior will lose a lot of weight and will stop being fat. Others who improve the same behavior to the same degree won't lose very much and remain fat. People's genes and bodies and maybe viruses are just different in this way. You can't tell anything about a person's choices in this regard just by looking at them.

I don't know you well enough to say if the following is true of you, questionmotives. I hope not. I'm not going to say it is true of all people who take the position you do. But I honestly believe that some people make ignorant comments about fat people because they desperately need them to be true. They need to be able to point to someone else and say, "The way that person looks proves I make smarter choices then they do and and that they lack my sterling personal qualities." It's the only time, or way, they can feel superior to someone else--and they need that, because other than that, they suspect there's not much else they have going for them. No matter how badly they feel about themselves...there's always somebody lower, fat people, to kick around.

As to the comment about "space I paid for" you and Tansy others make so repeatedly above....no one is saying that the problems of comfort caused (and caused to) large people on planes isn't real. But the "space I paid for" argument doesn't stand up to logic.

You are not "paying to occupy space," as you put it, questionmotives, or "paying for a seat" as Tansy said....you are paying the airline to take you somewhere. If no large person interfered with your enjoyment of your space and you had perfect undisturbed use of your seat for five hours, and the plane stayed on the runway and never went anywhere, you would not consider yourself to have gotten what you paid for.

People pay airlines not to rent a seat or space for a period of time but to transport them to a destination. If you are uncomfortable during flight, you may complain about your seatmate, or decide to fly another airline next time, but you'll pay them if they get you where you want to go. If they don't take you want to go, you'll demand your money back. Unless we're talking about the payment of extra money for extra comfort and service--First Class--payment is all about getting there. And it's about people getting there, not cubic inches of space displacement.

How good a job, from your experience or their reputation, you think an airline will do at making you comfortable, and at how low a price, is important to whether that airline is the one you choose to pay to get you where you want to go, when you have a choice of airline. This is true for thin people and fat people, and both have money which talks.

In the end, not many airlines are going to tell a large group of potential farepayers that they have to pay a whole lot more than other people because of their "lifestyle choices." Especially not after the big revenue losses which have befalled Southwest since they became known for that policy (see Underhill post above).

The airlines need those dollars and, to repeat a point made in one of the johncharles posts above, these customers will not meekly pay double or First Class or even run the risk of doing so, but will go to the competitors of airlines which adopt policies like Southwest's.

So to not alienate any group of customers like Southwest did, airlines will work on ways to carry people of different sizes on planes more comfortably for everyone involved. They'll realize that the point has been reached where the pendulum has swung too far towards small seats, and it is just not good business to have all coach seats on all planes at all times be that small.

This will not be very satisfying for those of you with a need to see others singled out and suffer injury for being inferior to you--but it's the way of capitalism, and it's the American way.

Rosemary1

Funny how the "disease" thing works for drug addicts, alcoholics and now overweight people.

I'm not going to debate that these are diseases or not.

However, if a person who has a disease that causes him to drink, become obnoxious, get into a car, kill someone, get back out and do it again and again. Do I cut him some slack because he has a disease? No, I do not.

There is still a choice, a behaviour a lifestyle. It's a matter of responsibility.

If a person has a disease of any kind, that person is responsible to take meds, evaluate condition and make changes in their lifestyle, etc.

If this means also, getting off drugs, alcohol, quitting smoking, eating healthy, exercise, etc. So be it, whatever it takes!

If you're going to buy that whatever is wrong with our behaviour, habits, lifestyle is not our responsibility, then where do we start? Who will we blame next???

Okay, enough of my soapbox!

questionmotives

Face it, we are a nation of people who do not want to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of our behavior. From the "twinkie defense" to "it's not your fault that you're overweight" (the line from a popular commercial right now), there is money to be made by convincing people that their actions had nothing to do with the end results, and a quick and easy fix, for a price, is all that is needed.

Isn't it amazing that Third World and developing countries seem to lack these so called "fat" viruses and diseases, yet America, land of processed food, has an overabundance of them. What a miraculous coincidence.

GeBo

More broad statements without knowledge of the facts, questionmotives. The virus is present in the Third World. In fact, it was initially found in India, not known as a center of overeating. Its discovery there caused an American researcher of Indian descent to test Americans for it.

Rosemary1, your analogy doesn't cut it. An alcoholic can avoid drunken behavior by not eating. A drug user can avoid drug induced behavior by not taking drugs. One can't stop eating. And a fat person who undertakes the most rigorous diet and exercise routine will still be fat in the short run and in the log run may at best only be able to be somewhat less fat. On any given day, this is a matter of what people are, not how they are behaving.

GoTravel, you're dragging the level of this discussion down to threats of violence, now? Even if shortsighted airline executives have been successful in turning you against your fellow passengers instead of demanding a solution from them--which might require them to lose the revenue (plus, if they need to compensate someone for being bumped) now and then from one of those too-tightly packed seats they've foisted on us--don't count on them allowing you to physically attack others.

Sad to see how easily people can be turned away from rightly blaming large, powerful organizations for social problems and towards blaming and hating the most helpless and outnumbered of their fellow victims. Hitler knew about that.