macdogmom

Building coats are also higher because everything has to be shipped by boat or plane. Our son moved to the big island during the pandemic (from NYC) and it feels very secluded. He and his wife work remote, but I think the vast majority of people are working in service industry or 2nd home people.

Jean

According to census data, about 64% of homes in Maui County are owner-occupied. Of course, that doesn't mean some aren't being used for STRs, AirBnB, etc. In comparison, homes in Los Angeles County are about 46% owner-occupied. The median value of owner-occupied housing units is higher in Maui County than L.A. County... $676K v. $646K.

A study conducted by USC determined that the percentage of "severely rent burdened" in L.A. County was about the same as Maui County... more than half of income going to rent.

But all of those numbers for Maui are meaningless now.

KonaJoe

Maui has had a housing shortage my entire life here in HI...65+ years. Multiple factors at play.
1) lots of land concentrated in agriculture and controlled by ag companies so they "manage" supply to keep prices up
2) government restrictions on density in most areas to retain green space and "rural feel"which is prized by both locals and visitors
3) high cost of land to purchase it and also to develop it due to SLOW processes, cost of holding land, cost of shipping materials and high labor costs. It takes 7-10 years to get a project actually building. By that point interest costs on the land have to be recovered.
4) restrictions due to infrastructure, e.g. water, electricity, roads
5) developers focus on higher margins of building resort housing
6) much of the development for normal folks housing is by the government and a few plantation operators that have transitioned to real estate developers. Many of those companies have had financial challenges coming out of the pandemic
7) Not often stated, but low income of service industry jobs translates into fewer qualified buyers of market priced homes so there is demand but not a real market in terms of "people with money to buy". Thus, lots of the money comes from Mainland and overseas buyers.
8) There is more money in developing resorts, shopping areas and hotels than in residential housing. So, the capital flows where it is getting its best return.
9) the "myth" of the impact of 2nd homes and short term rentals has not really been proven on Maui as it has somewhat on Oahu. Maui has a whole different set of issues and limitations like water as a starter.

zebec

KJ, thank you very much for your insightful list above. Puts a lot more context into the discussion, especially coming from a local.
I am done. the end

basingstoke2

Thank you KJ. I would like to add an additional perspective about fire fighting in rural and semi rural areas. Some years ago I was a member of a semi rural volunteer fire department. As one might surmise major problems with larger fires included paucity of trained fire fighters, lack of equipment and water supply. When I was a volunteer we had two large fires Our department had only one fire truck, a pumper, no one who really had professional training and the only water supply in addition to that carried by the pumper was from a small creek that ran past my house. For both fires we had to call in assets from surrounding departments This takes time during which the fire grows. For one large fire we had five pumpers connected in a chain to reach the building, the first siphoning water from the creek. In my tenure there we never saved a building, the goal being to stop the spread and rescue any people and animals endangered. That was simply because by the time our assets arrived, we're set up (no one actually lived at the fire house) and other assets arrived and set up, the involved building was usually a total loss. In Maui there was already another fire being fought in another town. I suppose that because of this assets were spread thin, not to mention the time it would take to move them to Lahaina. Frankly in this situation there was little that could be done given the intensity of the fire, rapidity of spread and as I read, lack of sufficient water supply.

mlgb

The bigger issue is not that they could not stop a ferocious wind-driven fire (other than making a stand on a property or two) but the lack of effective warnings, the decision not to sound the sirens, not putting up blockades to stop travel into Lahaina, sounding an all clear when high winds were forecast (not babysitting hotspots led directly to the Oakland Hills disaster which was over 30 years ago..), not going around neighborhoods downwind of fires to evacuate, etc..

Many of these things have been learned during some of the California firestorms. Very often even an agency's own response plan is ignored. Experienced wildland firefighters are retiring in droves. New managemnet are often better at public relations than anything else. It does sound like the head of the Maui Emergency Mangement is one of those, with no formal background in emergency response and reportedly a political crony of the former mayor.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/wa...over-his-head/

LucieV

KJ, thank you for your perspective as a long-time resident.
Like mlgb, I am baffled by the failure of the warning system. Has it been explained?

mlgb

The excuse given was that the sirens were for tsunamis. SMH.

Barbara

The sirens in Hawaii are indeed for tsunamis just as the sirens in the mid-west are for tornadoes. The population is trained to react in a specific way when the sirens sound. Tsunamis require people to hurry to higher ground, away from the ocean. In this case, right into the fire. In the mid-west, sirens send people to their basements or wherever they shelter from tornadoes and in a wildfire they would all die.

mlgb

If they had given people credit for sticking their noses out or looking in the sky, many in the afternoon would have realized that it was about the fire that they could see, not a tsunami. Some were waiting for an official order to evacuate. e.g. from ABC7 News "Hector Bermudez left his apartment at Lahaina Shores shortly after 4:30 p.m. Tuesday after the smell of smoke woke him up from a nap. He asked his neighbor if he was also leaving."He said, 'No, I am waiting for the authorities to see what they are going to do,'" Bermudez recounted. "And I said, 'No, no no, please go. This smoke is going to kill us. You have to go. Please. You gotta get out of here. Don't wait for nobody.'"

"The silent sirens have raised questions about whether everything was done to alert the public in a state that possesses an elaborate emergency warning system for a variety of dangers including wars, volcanoes, hurricanes and wildfires.

Apparently Maui County's website mentions an all-hazard statewide outdoor warning siren system that can be used for wildfires too."The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more," the website reads.

I wonder if the director had ever read it?

Barbara

I read that and it makes absolutely no sense. Their protocol was/is to use the sirens only for tsunamis. In an emergency, people panic. The alert has to be simple and ingrained. Trying to tune a radio (and who has a radio to tune other than in your car?) to a specific station when you're freaking out is just not going to happen. IMO, simplicity is even more important when there are thousands of tourists in play, many of whom don't speak English.

mlgb

We will see a full investigation. Many don't agree with the failure to activate the sirens,.
Both the County and State guidelines say the sirens can be used for hazards other than tsunami and many people think they would have left earlier if they had sounded . Fires had been going on since earlier that morning, I certainly can't imagine that everyone would have said "tsunami" when the fires and smoke were already present. If the County though that the text alets were effective, they could have used them together with the sirens.

Obviously their "protocol" did not work.

macdogmom

In Santa Barbara we got text alerts about the Thomas fire and then when it approached SB we were told to evacuate. Same with the mudslides. Even though we weren’t in Montecito but above downtown I still remember the text I got in the middle of the night warning residents. I signed up for getting texts for emergency’s years ago.

mlgb

AP Reports (LAHAINA, Hawaii (AP) — The head of the Maui Emergency Management Agency resigned abruptly Thursday, a day after saying he had no regret about not using sirens to warn residents of wildfires that devastated the seaside community of Lahaina and killed at least 111 people. That decision from the agency directed by Administrator Herman Andaya, coupled with water shortages that hampered firefighters and an escape route that became clogged with vehicles that were overrun by flames, has brought intense criticism from many residents. Mayor Richard Bissen accepted Andaya’s resignation effective immediately, the County of Maui announced on Facebook. Andaya cited unspecified health reasons for leaving his post, with no further details provided.

Some of us could see that coming. If I was a betting person I'd say he was asked to resign in lieu of being terminated. I'll bet he has packed his bags and left for the mainland already.

I've chosen not to live in an extreme fire hazard zone in California. My SO for over 40 years was a LA County firefighter. He was called to report to several of the Santa Barbara fires. His last posting was on Palos Verdes Peninsula and those units were never called away since "that whole hill is going to go up any time".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rnia_wildfires

starrs

The miracle house -
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/wh...se-in-lahaina/

starrs

Good news!
"The beloved 150-year-old banyan tree in Lahaina is showing signs of life below ground, just over three weeks after a wildfire destroyed much of the town."
https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-...-below-ground/

sunbum1944

Yay! pray for the tree. !

zebec

Somehow, I am not surprised. The ways of trees are still not fully understood by humans.
I am done. the Steve banyon

TDudette

Don't hold me to all the nuances, but by virtue of trees' root systems sucking up moisture, fires do not automatically kill internally moist trees. Lots of factors, but may the banyon survive.

Inakauaidavidababy

woohoo