It is interesting that in the past few years more and more schools are indeed asking students to use their web pages for info -(just as more and more are preferring apps be submitted online, and more and more thru the common app) - and it is often the same info in the books - many of the books and rankings can be misleading b/c they use many factors to determine those - as do the schools - some of which are accurate and some are within the "how to lie with statistics" area - this is why one needs a variety of sources, books, web, campus visits, direct questions to admissions reps, and speaking with current students, graduates and parents who have been through what has now become much more of a project than it was in the past, and far more confusing for many.

With the population of college bound students incrediibly high (which is why many schools are housing students in local hotels, motels and playing room roulette with dorms while others go abroad, and often many now start a significant number of freshmen in an outside program in another country to up their enrollment and then bring them onto campus at a time when others are abroad, etc)
and it will be very interesting to see how their requirements change, or the student sthey will look at, once these numbers of applicants drops , which is going to also happen in the near future.

B/c this generation is so web oriented, many of the applicants do not use books, but use the web to help narrow their search- Peterson's (which also has a printed book that is quite good) also has a web page where a student can fill in their interests, academics, etc and fill out a questionairre and it matches them with schools - this can be a good tool for a student to use - I believe USNews also has such a site.

Naturally, no matter what all the books (like even Fiske chooses the colleges they will even include or not) or the college web page says, it is still always best for students to 'get their feet on the campus' and to speak with both admissions representatives to ask their tailored questions and to students they meet and pass in the dining halls and dorms - we got most of our info over the past ten years from those two sources -

I agree Vikingcool, it has to be a 'fit' and that brings many different options for what will be best for a students interests. College should be many things during those four years, and academics is one of the pieces of the pie, - and the worse thing is to put a child in a school where they will be stressed out trying to keep up when it isn't where they should be, or where they don't want to be but went because of that schools rankings or programs for those less academic.

NYtraveler, while we would all like to think every HS graduate is a proficient reader, that is not the case - which is why some states like MA have started with the MCAS to have specific graduation requirements, - what some high schools think is proficient is not, or may be in high school but not for college level - and what some kids are capable of to reach proficiency in reading and comprehension requires assistance - esp today when we are more aware than ever of all the various degrees of learning disabilities - it would be nice to think no university of any caliber would admit someone who is not proficient or who is in need of remedial assistance, but that is also not the case. Even many of the most the more selective universities and colleges have these programs in place.

Sometimes b/c local high schools have not all been able to offer assistance for every child and b/c of all the varied 'disabilities' or learning styles today - and so the colleges now provide them -

sometimes even going to a junior college first, will not give that student what they need since many junior colleges (while there are certainly many fine ones that serve students extremely well for a variety of reasons) many can not afford or offer all that is necessary for specific learners and so our colleges and universities have stepped up to the plate.

This does not necessarily mean a student is allowed to remain if within the first two years they do not accomplish to a certain level, or if they do not maintain a specific grade point average - but many schools, including BU, have a specific college within them for students who are not quite ready for the more difficult requirements and they are admitted to that school and then allowed to transfer to the more 'standard' program and/or remain in the specific program.

It is actually a good thing our colleges and universities are doing this, b/c many public schools can not afford to do it all, those institutions have stepped up to the plate, which only makes in the future for a more educated and better adult and workforce and living opportunities. It allows these students who may be excellent in one area and not another to become more proficient in many areas by improving their reading and comprehension.

If you are considering one of the state universities, you may want to look at Binghamton -- its universally recognized as NY's premier public university and was ranked recently (in Fiske I think) as the nation's best state school for out-of-state candidates. I have friends that attended, and they liked the bucolic atmosphere. Its a bit further from NYC, but its a quick flight/bus away.

Once again, you are all so helpful. This board has been amazing to read with the experiences and advice you are sharing.
thit-cho, we may take a look at Binghampton, but it is a bit further from NYC than we want to go. However, your mention of it being the premier state university in New York and our research into majors offered is a fit, we may make a road trip there as well.

Escargot -

I'm not suggesting that every high school graduate IS a proficient reader. I recognize that many are not - although I admit I don;t understand why unless the student has a learning disability - or is a recent immigrant. (My younger brother had mild dyslexia - not diagnosed until later - and he learned to read with very little problem - always ahead of grade level and placing out during 10th grade.)

My suggestion is simply that students who are NOT proficient readers are not appropriate university candidates. (I can;t imagine how someone who couldn;t whiz through a number of books would get through Comparative Political Systems - for which you had to read 53 books - and was a requirement for graduation for anyone majoring in history or political science.)

And if it takes a candidate 2 years to learn to read does it take them 6 years to get through university? (since they obviously can;t really complete the reading or papers in their other courses without basic reading and writing skills).

Everyone is not suited to a university education. And somehow managing not to learn to read proficiently in 12 years is - I think - a fairly good sign of that.

If someone has talents in a differnt direction - going to FIT or Julliard or a school focusing heavily on graphics - perhaps being an excellent reader is not such an issue. (But how do you learn to be a film maker if you can;t read and understand a script?)

But really - you simply can;t get through any curriculum in liberal or fine arts or sciences or business unless you can plow through masses of books.

I'm not saying they can't read - I'm saying they have trouble and it often takes longer to get through a book, that sometimes colleges have them use tapes instead of books, and the remedial assistance in the tutoring and skills centers, that are a part of most colleges today, are there to assist them. If a student takes an untimed SAT or ACT, it is usualy b/c they need more time to finish a task, not that they can not do the task and in college they usually get more improved methods of assisting them so they aren't stuck in one track or another. These students may not choose a major that requires the massive reading of a philosophy or history major, but choose a different one with less reading - there is reading required for theater majors, but a young man I know had assistance with that at a major college through the tutoring skills/remedial reading center and is acting today, although he needs to have someone read his lines into an earpiece b/c he can not memorize.... colleges today , of all caliber, help students find their way - that is all I am trying to say.

Not learning to be a proficien reader in 12 yrs of school is not necessarily something that can not be fixed - it is sometimes a result of the school system they were in and the support systems that school was able to afford and offer - those students who show capabilities in other ways, are often accepted at schools.

Viking is not, as she said, reticent to consider a school that offers those programs if it is the right fit in other ways for her child, and that is what is most important in the end.

But we are getting off on a tangent here unrelated to the OP's question and I don't want to totally hijack her post - this subject of remedial readins courses/college/etc could have an entire book written about it and I'm sure we'd get a variety of opinions on that alone.

Viking is a he.....just so everyone knows! Great comments from escargot. I am getting the feeling that nytraveler has not worked with people who have learning disabilities and deficiencies. People who have these problems many times are the people who will fix my sink, my oven, my car, or build my deck; things I could never do in a million years no matter how many books I read on the subjects. They may not be rocket scientists, but they have made some of the parts that go in the construction of the rocket.
With that all said, the right fir for my daughter in the college she chooses is our purpose on this trip. I appreciate the suggestions you have given my in this search. I will entertain more suggestions as the weeks go forward.

Viking is a he.....just so everyone knows! Great comments from escargot. I am getting the feeling that nytraveler has not worked with people who have learning disabilities and deficiencies. People who have these problems many times are the people who will fix my sink, my oven, my car, or build my deck; things I could never do in a million years no matter how many books I read on the subjects. They may not be rocket scientists, but they have made some of the parts that go in the construction of the rocket.
With that all said, the right fit for my daughter in the college she chooses is our purpose on this trip. I appreciate the suggestions you have given my in this search. I will entertain more suggestions as the weeks go forward.

Good for you Viking - I love an involved father - too many times it is only the mother involved or only the father - good to have both opinions, as noone knows their child better than the parents..
One of the things I do is 'college organizing' - not counseling, but helping students organize their material, their choices, their final list, and keep them on a timetable for completing their apps - these are often, but not always, students who would not be considered 'worthy' by some of the HS school counselors as the stars that require their time, yet of all my past 'kids' - from those who went to Ivy Leagues, top 20 universities or colleges, middle of the road and even unsung gems or mediocre, the ones who some thought didn't have the 'stuff', or needed more assistance in the beginning, are very often the ones who years later visit me and are the most well rounded, successful in their own way, and happy.

There is a paper you might find interesting, I think you can track it down online. It is called
"Where do the children of professors attend college"
and it is by John Siegfried and Malcolm Getz , Vanderbilt University - you may be able to access it through google or through vanderbilt.edu/econ

It is about 50 pp long, but has many good points whether you are interested in the colleges it lists regarding a college search.

There are also two books - one is Colleges that Change Lives - by Loren Pope and the otehr is Making a Difference Colleges - you may want ot see if your library has those too. Interesting reading.

Sorry- the sentence -

It is about 50 pp long, but has many good points whether you are interested in the colleges it lists regarding a college search.

should have read: whether or not you are interested in the colleges it lists....

escargot,

Googled the paper and found it for a $30 price. I will keep looking and see if it can be found in our local college library. Thanks for the posts.

Escargot -

The only problem with readers who can;t read quickly - or absorb easily - is that college requires so much more workr than high school. The significantly greater amont of work to be done is often enough a shock for a good student - with strong reading skills.

One of my suitemates in college had been the valedictorian of her high school - granted a small school in a tiny town in PA. She had worked very hard in high school to achieve that. When she got to a large university in another state she was simply lost - since she was now competing with students who had done minimal work in high school - making it much easier to gear up to meet college level and quantity of work - and had much stronger basic educations to begin with. She had to change majors 3 times to find one she could deal with (and was so devastated when her biology professor told her to drop the class after the thrid lab - she had intended it to be her major - but her told her she simply didn't have the basics needed to get through the course). Even then she needed special tutoring from her friends - and still ending up with mostly Cs. And her BASIC skills weren't that bad, but she had none of the extras - and had to plod through most of her work - always trying to study when the rest of us would go out on weekends. Without her suitemates I'm not sure she would have stayed - or graduated.

How can a student get the required learning out of any course if they can;t read the requied material, can't do the reseach for or write the required term papers? Or - in the case of the sciences can't absorb and memorize all the facts or learn the maths or the computer skills?

I think that by admitting students who aren;t rady to university we do a disservice to all the students. The ones without the skills are struggling and it can't be doing anything for their confidence. And the dreaded "rading on the curve" - which has to be the worst idea ever invented - means that their inabilities will eventually erode the learning required of all students.

When they should be learning more - and faster - things are being made easier. If this continues - soon a university degree will have little meaning - except the spending of a lot of money for a piece of paper.

VikingCool - I have that paper in a pdf format. If you want to post an email I will send it along to you.

NYTraveler:to answer some of your questions:

"How can a student get the required learning out of any course if they can;t read the requied material, can't do the reseach for or write the required term papers? " - They do it by taking advantage of the remedial/tutoring skills centers at the colleges - I wasn't saying they get into college w/out being able to read - they just need assistance with reading/comprehension or have special needs the college is willing to address - for example, years ago my cousin went to St.Michaels in VT; he was dyslexic, his reading skills were poor - he had been learning his material with tutors in HS and by using tapes and other methods - no one who knew him thought he could handle college - the tutoring skills center and professors all helped him figure many things out to improve - he was extremely intelligent, could verbalize his material, was a great consensus builder and wanted to major in international business or politics - since graduating St. Mike's, he continued on to grad school, became a teacher, a professor, has a PhD, teaches international business, has been asked to speak and teach by five universities in Europe and several in the U.S. , was campaign manager for two policitical local campaigns, and owns a handful of rental properties out in western U.S. - this is a kid who needed a college with remedial/tutoring center skill set up. His public HS did not have the money or staff to assist.

"Or - in the case of the sciences can't absorb and memorize all the facts or learn the maths or the computer skills?" - well then perhaps theywon't major in science, math or computer skills. Perhaps like my neighbor, they will work hard to get through, and miss parties, etc, maybe not, but will find their niche - his happens to be owning his own electrical firm with nine trucks.

These students do not pull down the others, the systems are in place a the colleges so that does not happen - we are not talking about every case, that would be impossible - we are not talking about kids who can not read at all - there are other schools for them, but all I am saying is that you seemed to imply that colleges that offer remedial reading are not up to snuff and you need to read each colleges offerings and see that many fine colleges and universities do in fact supply these skill centers - so now, students who never had a chance do - somewhere along the line the system realized there were students who could improve, could find their talents, with assistance and provide it.

Certainly there are students who need far too much remedial assistance and need to focus instead on a smaller institution - junior college that specializes in that, or trade school or whatever - but even to finish a trade school you need to read and comprehend - and it is not a bad thing that schools are providing this - it isn't detrimental to the other students, and it isn't detrimental to those who need it - the schools are set up to provide it, to make the most successful experience it can be if the student also has the desire and will.

Just like there were different levels in HS, there are different levels within colleges.
Some state schools will not admit students whoh need remedial reading at a certain level, in some states universiteis are working with the public high schools to get the students in HS better prepared (california, nyc, and others), some states are finding students actually have a better shot at finishing if they go to a four yr college instead of a 2 yr college, at the state school level, many states are trying to find other solutions b/c the state does not want to pay to 'educate' a child twice, if they don't get what they need in HS, but then again, they are not funding the HS's enough to provide what is needed, and so they offer skill centers in school b/c they realize a more educated person has the chance of better jobs, being a better citizen, etc.

States, colleges, universities, are all trying to find the best way to make it work. There are hundreds of research articles you can find about this online.

Certainly, one type of student wouldn't want to attend a school where the majority of students attend for the remedial math, reading or other skill build up courses, but just b/c a school offers that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered by some students.

It's too detailed, too much info, each state and school is different, it depends on percentages, and a ton of other info. It's just not one of those topics that blanket statements can be made about. Everyone is trying to figure it out - but if you asked me my honest personal opinon, I would say we are underfunding and understaffing many of our public high schools so they have not been able to keep up with the times, keep up with the learning disabilities we have learned about in the past decades we did not know about before, etc, etc.

escargot,
Thanks a million. Here is my email address:

[email protected]

I really appreciate the help you have given me as well as the many others on this site who give valuable advice.

We won't be traveling until July, but it's good to know that you have helped us prepare for this important time in my daughter's life.

VikingCool - I sent the research paper to you via email - it may end up in your spam folder, who knows, so check there also -
Hope it offers some food for thought -
If for some reason you don't receive it, post here and I'll send again.

Escargot - We cancertainly agree about some of these things. We are grossly underfunding our public schools - and rather than face that fact and give them the resources they need to really teach students in today's world - we are simply teaching them less and less.

I had a conversation with a coworker not long ago who was complaining loudly that her school taxes were being raised approximately $1500 for the year. Yet she had just spent (wasted) well over $30,000 on a new SUV - rather than continue to drive one 5 years old. It's priorities like these - as well as her involvement in her job and so many other activities to the detriment of time spend with her child) that result in failing schools and failing students. (I'm amazed at some of the things that young adults and even teens don;t know. A friend of mine has a 14 year old nephew who can;t tell time - since he's used to digital watches. The entire concept of hours on a clock, time zones, etc is a complete mystery to him.)

I'm still concerned that rather than addressing this - the real problem - we're pushing it onto universities - where it really doesn;t belong. How can they hope to maintain their standards if they spend so much effort on catching kids up to where they should already be?

escargot and nytraveler

I agree with many of your comments about our public school system in this country. As an educator in a public school, I can attest to the lack of school readiness for so many of our incoming Kindergarten students. As a Principal, I have witnessed students who did not know how to hold a pencil or crayon, had no idea how to color a picture, and could not identify any numbers or letters of the alphabet when they began school. It is sad that some parents do not take the time to begin teaching their children at home. In most of these cases, low socioeconomic status has put these children behind the eight ball because of their lack of opportunities and nutrition issues in their physical and mental development.

escargot,
I did receive the paper. Thank you very much.

Glad the email went through with the paper -
interesting read -

NYtraveler, you ask
"How can they hope to maintain their standards if they spend so much effort on catching kids up to where they should already be?" - I think they maintain their standards b/c they are not changing the standards for the others, they are offering a resource area for the students who not only need the assistance but desperately want it, - they can afford to do it without taking away from other students - and I think the benefit is not only to those students, but society at large by providing education and citizens who are better prepared to be a part of society no matter what they do.
So basically it's a win/win -
Public schools are so underf unded as far as keeping up with what they need to do, and yet I also understand it is tough to always ask people to up their taxes (I hear it in our town all the time, those who don't have kids, or whose kids are grown, do not want to have their taxes raised for the schools) and yet, - it is exactly those students who will be running the town, running the country, in charge of everything so we should arm them with the best education possible-
sometims I think part of it is this 'me' society - the car, the vacation, the whatever instead of public education which really does benefit us all -
hopefully we will (the country) get this one right and step up to the plate.
The education begins when they are young and richer towns have more active parent groups that raise additional funds for things, and by virtue of their financial status can also afford tutors, etc themselves (not that some students still don't fall thru the cracks) but in the lower socio-economic areas, it is really devastating b/c those kids have no back up - no fundraising arms at their school, likely working parents, low taxes for public education, etc, etc......

let's hope we educated this generation enough that maybe they can figure it out !