Indian reserves
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:21 AM
#22
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If anyone still cares:
Native American is a term invented by the federal government in the 1960's to group American Indians, Native Hawaiians and Native Alaskans. It is not a term agreed upon by anthropologists or scholars in any other discipline. I have done quite bit of work both for my job and for my PhD program with American Indians, and can tell you that "American Indian" is the preferred term of the moment. There are some that dislike this term-I think there are some regional differences-but here out West, the peoples that have been here for thousands of years call themselves American Indians.
Native American is a term invented by the federal government in the 1960's to group American Indians, Native Hawaiians and Native Alaskans. It is not a term agreed upon by anthropologists or scholars in any other discipline. I have done quite bit of work both for my job and for my PhD program with American Indians, and can tell you that "American Indian" is the preferred term of the moment. There are some that dislike this term-I think there are some regional differences-but here out West, the peoples that have been here for thousands of years call themselves American Indians.
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:27 AM
#23
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In reply to the poster, if you can somehow manage to get to the southwest (maybe a long weekend with a last minute fare?), Canyon de Chelly might offer you the best glimpse into Indian life. You can only access the canyon floor with an Indian guide, and I've heard that the tours can be quite interesting.
http://www.nps.gov/cach/index.htm
http://www.nps.gov/cach/index.htm
Apr 7th, 2005, 11:50 AM
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Some of my relatives are "real Indians". They are of the Cherokee tribe in western NC. As for being called a "Native American" or "American Indian"; that was derived from the colonization of America by Europeans. There are tribes all over America. The Cherokees are descendants of Indians who escaped the forced exodus by the U.S. Government in the early 1800's to make room for the Europeans thirst for money (gold). They hid in the mountains of western NC and were forced to live in shame and poverty for years. I don't want to give a history lesson here... What people call Cherokee or other tribes is just that, a moniker created by others. Actually Cherokee refer to each other as yun-wi-ya. liiat, if you ever get the chance, come to Cherokee, NC and see the drama "Unto These Hills", set in an outdoor amphitheatre.
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:03 PM
#25
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Smokeyboy, take a look at the powwow link I referenced earlier. I think I may go to the Cherokee Memorial ceremony in Talking Rock, GA in May.
http://www.powwows.com/gathering/pw_...p?eventid=3799
My maternal great-grandmother was Cherokee whose family hid in the TN mountain coves rather than head west to Oklahoma on what became the Trail of Tears. I look just like "Granny" - lots of Cherokee blood pumping through these veins.
My paternal great-grandparents were of Scotch-Irish descent arriving in GA via Virginia and South Carolina - moving into former Creek land as it was "vacated".
So, this Cherokee girl is living in Creek land.
I didn't know until a few years ago what the saying I'd heard all my life really meant - "We'll see you if the Lord's willing and the creeks don't rise". I thought it meant "creeks" as in flooding. Finally, learned it was "Creeks" as in attacks on the settlers by the original occupants of the land.
http://www.powwows.com/gathering/pw_...p?eventid=3799
My maternal great-grandmother was Cherokee whose family hid in the TN mountain coves rather than head west to Oklahoma on what became the Trail of Tears. I look just like "Granny" - lots of Cherokee blood pumping through these veins.
My paternal great-grandparents were of Scotch-Irish descent arriving in GA via Virginia and South Carolina - moving into former Creek land as it was "vacated".
So, this Cherokee girl is living in Creek land.
I didn't know until a few years ago what the saying I'd heard all my life really meant - "We'll see you if the Lord's willing and the creeks don't rise". I thought it meant "creeks" as in flooding. Finally, learned it was "Creeks" as in attacks on the settlers by the original occupants of the land.
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:16 PM
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Just ran into this...Yikes!
liiat: what do you expect to see at a reservation? Current living conditions on most reservations in my observations are less than great. They are not what one may assume from American movies. For an example of this, read the recent news stories of the school shootings in MN.
That being said, there are some places that would give you a cultural/historical background of Indian history. Chokia Mounds in South Central Illinois is one of these areas: http://www.cahokiamounds.com/cahokia.html
As mentioned there are more historical sites in the Western part of the US.
If you are interested in US history and want to or need to stay near your base, I would encourage you to visit the Gettysburg battle site which is very historic from the Civil war of the late 1800's.
Have a good trip!
liiat: what do you expect to see at a reservation? Current living conditions on most reservations in my observations are less than great. They are not what one may assume from American movies. For an example of this, read the recent news stories of the school shootings in MN.
That being said, there are some places that would give you a cultural/historical background of Indian history. Chokia Mounds in South Central Illinois is one of these areas: http://www.cahokiamounds.com/cahokia.html
As mentioned there are more historical sites in the Western part of the US.
If you are interested in US history and want to or need to stay near your base, I would encourage you to visit the Gettysburg battle site which is very historic from the Civil war of the late 1800's.
Have a good trip!
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:32 PM
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liiat -
You need to be much more specific about what you want to see. Don't know what you mean by "real Indians" - there are people of American Indian descent (I'm trying to avoid the argument so as not to offend anyone) everywhere in the US. I can introduce you to two I know in NYC.
Are you looking for a specific kind of historic/cultural site? (As others have mentioned there are many more remains in the southwest due to construction materials/weather conditions than in areas such as the northeast, northwest or south - where most cultures constructed primarily of wood - and so little remains. and for some groups - such as the plains indians who were more nomadic - villages were often even less lasting. And this leaves out the entire issue of forced relocations.)
Much of the northeast was occupied by members of the Iroquois Confederation (the Indians of the 1760's French and Indian wars) which may be closest to you. But unless some special event is taking place there is not much to see and the traditional villages - with wooden longhouses etc don;t exist any longer even as historical reconstructions as far as I know.
You need to be much more specific about what you want to see. Don't know what you mean by "real Indians" - there are people of American Indian descent (I'm trying to avoid the argument so as not to offend anyone) everywhere in the US. I can introduce you to two I know in NYC.
Are you looking for a specific kind of historic/cultural site? (As others have mentioned there are many more remains in the southwest due to construction materials/weather conditions than in areas such as the northeast, northwest or south - where most cultures constructed primarily of wood - and so little remains. and for some groups - such as the plains indians who were more nomadic - villages were often even less lasting. And this leaves out the entire issue of forced relocations.)
Much of the northeast was occupied by members of the Iroquois Confederation (the Indians of the 1760's French and Indian wars) which may be closest to you. But unless some special event is taking place there is not much to see and the traditional villages - with wooden longhouses etc don;t exist any longer even as historical reconstructions as far as I know.
Apr 7th, 2005, 12:40 PM
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It seems history is one most of us know little about when it comes to lineage. I was amazed at how my ancestors co-existed in the area that is now the the Qualla boundary (Cherokee) . White, Black & Indian. It seems the modus set forth by the U.S. government ticked off a lot of people in this area. A lot could be learned. But, hey that's another story. starrsville, Wado! liiat, I truly hope you get to fulfill some of your dream.
Apr 7th, 2005, 08:50 PM
#29
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Dear friends,
Now I see, how much I still have to learn, before I dream even of fulfilling my chilhood dreams, and for that, I thank you a l l.
(I have a lot of homework to do)
Thanks again for opening for me new points of view.
Now I see, how much I still have to learn, before I dream even of fulfilling my chilhood dreams, and for that, I thank you a l l.
(I have a lot of homework to do)
Thanks again for opening for me new points of view.
Apr 7th, 2005, 09:15 PM
#30
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liiat,
If you are coming to the US for a month, you may want to think about a short trip to the American Southwest.
I just checked Southwest Airlines website (www.southwest.com), randomly chose some dates and found round trip rates from Philly to Alb., NM for $317.
You could get a rental car, drive up to Santa Fe and Taos, and go to Canyon de Chelley as recommended by another poster on this thread.
It's worth some consideration - fulfill your dream on your maybe one-and-only-trip to the US.
If you are coming to the US for a month, you may want to think about a short trip to the American Southwest.
I just checked Southwest Airlines website (www.southwest.com), randomly chose some dates and found round trip rates from Philly to Alb., NM for $317.
You could get a rental car, drive up to Santa Fe and Taos, and go to Canyon de Chelley as recommended by another poster on this thread.
It's worth some consideration - fulfill your dream on your maybe one-and-only-trip to the US.
Apr 7th, 2005, 10:33 PM
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During my recent visits to the new Smithsonian museum, we were encourage by our Native American Indian (I think that's the terminology they used!) to attend any pow-wows we were able to.
At the Iroqois Museum near Howes Caves NY we learned that there is "social dancing" and then "ceremonial dances" and that the former are willingly shared that the latter are too religious in nature to be performed outside the ceremonies.
Excellant Pequiot museum near Foxwoods in CT. Years ago (childhood) visited Seminole "Village" near Ft Lauderdale.
Visited Puye Indian Ruins near Santa Fe and also Pecos National Monument(Park?) near there as well.
Liiat - you might see if you can locate the Ken Burns series on videotape or DVD about the West and Native American Indians. Most of us grew up with a distorted "Cowboys & Indians" viewpoint and I'm sorry to say that our people and government have not always done the right thing in our dealings, even more recent times.
I did a long distance bicycle ride 15 yr ago, and we rode thru some reservations. Sometimes we were asked to NOT take pictures. As we were on somewhat of a schedule, I could not spend as much time visiting and talking as I might have, but appreciated what I was able to experience. I hope you are able to fulfill your dream, and am sorry you were caught "off-guard" in the discussion about terminology.
At the Iroqois Museum near Howes Caves NY we learned that there is "social dancing" and then "ceremonial dances" and that the former are willingly shared that the latter are too religious in nature to be performed outside the ceremonies.
Excellant Pequiot museum near Foxwoods in CT. Years ago (childhood) visited Seminole "Village" near Ft Lauderdale.
Visited Puye Indian Ruins near Santa Fe and also Pecos National Monument(Park?) near there as well.
Liiat - you might see if you can locate the Ken Burns series on videotape or DVD about the West and Native American Indians. Most of us grew up with a distorted "Cowboys & Indians" viewpoint and I'm sorry to say that our people and government have not always done the right thing in our dealings, even more recent times.
I did a long distance bicycle ride 15 yr ago, and we rode thru some reservations. Sometimes we were asked to NOT take pictures. As we were on somewhat of a schedule, I could not spend as much time visiting and talking as I might have, but appreciated what I was able to experience. I hope you are able to fulfill your dream, and am sorry you were caught "off-guard" in the discussion about terminology.
Apr 8th, 2005, 08:28 AM
#32
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Liiat - Based on your reference to the German writer Karl May, I'd guess that's the basis of your interest in "real Indians." I'll try to avoid any discussion on the correct terminology, you've gotten enough of that!
Karl May's books were set in the American West, which would probably be primarily the U.S. states of Arizona, New Mexico and possibly Utah or Colorado as well. While there are still members of various Eastern tribes in the eastern U.S., and reservations as well, the bigger populations of American Indian/Native Americans and tribes that you might have heard of (Apache, Sioux, who now more often use the more correct term Lakota, Pueblo, Navajo) are located in those Western states. Even those areas, and the reservations within them, would probably not fit your image based on Karl May's stories.
But if you can make your way out West, you will experience a different side of U.S. lifej and its geography, and you will certainly enjoy it!
P.S. to other posters of this thread - Not to add to the way-too-long discussion of terminology, but to give a different and somewhat humerous viewpoint, my son is Indian American. That is, his paternal grandparents are from India. He calls himself "Indian American" and the "other" type of Indians "Native Americans" - I don't think he's old enough to understand the subtle distinction between Indian American and American Indian. When he tells people he's Indian American, and especially living in a Western state and not having any facial or other features that might be considered to be distinctive of people from India, people think he's Indian as in from a tribe here in the U.S. Let's not even go into the year he dressed as "the other Indian" for Halloween...
Karl May's books were set in the American West, which would probably be primarily the U.S. states of Arizona, New Mexico and possibly Utah or Colorado as well. While there are still members of various Eastern tribes in the eastern U.S., and reservations as well, the bigger populations of American Indian/Native Americans and tribes that you might have heard of (Apache, Sioux, who now more often use the more correct term Lakota, Pueblo, Navajo) are located in those Western states. Even those areas, and the reservations within them, would probably not fit your image based on Karl May's stories.
But if you can make your way out West, you will experience a different side of U.S. lifej and its geography, and you will certainly enjoy it!
P.S. to other posters of this thread - Not to add to the way-too-long discussion of terminology, but to give a different and somewhat humerous viewpoint, my son is Indian American. That is, his paternal grandparents are from India. He calls himself "Indian American" and the "other" type of Indians "Native Americans" - I don't think he's old enough to understand the subtle distinction between Indian American and American Indian. When he tells people he's Indian American, and especially living in a Western state and not having any facial or other features that might be considered to be distinctive of people from India, people think he's Indian as in from a tribe here in the U.S. Let's not even go into the year he dressed as "the other Indian" for Halloween...
Apr 8th, 2005, 09:02 AM
#33
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American myopia never ceases to amaze me.
A person from another country expresses an interest in a unique aspect of American culture; because English isn't his first language, he mangles some of the terminology, but clearly expresses regret for doing so.
He is abused repeatedly for his mistake, treated to inane discussions among the generally ill-informed, and then taken to task for not educating himself about tribal life today and the school shootings in Red Lake, Minnesota.
Wow! Have any of you tried to figure out who Karl May is, and where liiat's vision of the American Indian came from? How much do you know about, say, German history and culture going back centuries?
Give the guy a break! Quit making him feel bad for wanting to see American Indian culture firsthand! Sheesh.
A person from another country expresses an interest in a unique aspect of American culture; because English isn't his first language, he mangles some of the terminology, but clearly expresses regret for doing so.
He is abused repeatedly for his mistake, treated to inane discussions among the generally ill-informed, and then taken to task for not educating himself about tribal life today and the school shootings in Red Lake, Minnesota.
Wow! Have any of you tried to figure out who Karl May is, and where liiat's vision of the American Indian came from? How much do you know about, say, German history and culture going back centuries?
Give the guy a break! Quit making him feel bad for wanting to see American Indian culture firsthand! Sheesh.
Apr 8th, 2005, 09:16 AM
#34
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Funny where this whole business of trying to be politically correct takes us. Seems one can't win for losing.
liiat, Please add some clarify to your dream. What are you hoping to see? If it's not casinos, you might be disappointed.
liiat, Please add some clarify to your dream. What are you hoping to see? If it's not casinos, you might be disappointed.
Apr 8th, 2005, 09:20 AM
#35
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For the curious Americans, Karl May is a very famous German writer of Wild West American stories written I believe around a century ago. He wrote tales of cowboys and Indians without ever having travelled to the US.
His hometown is Dresden - actually a small suburb of Dresden called Radebeul.
One of my favorite late night (and I mean very late night) hangouts in Radebeul is actually the Karl May Saloon right on the main street that runs from Dresden to Meissen.
Decorated to the hilt with western memorabelia. US country music playing, line dancing, you name it. What a hoot!
The proprietor - don't know his name but I call him 'Tex' (I told you this was a very late night hangout, after other places have shut for the night). He's very appreciative of receiving Western gifts from any US visitors. Thought of bringing a nice set of 3' Texas long horns with me one time but didn't think TSA would let them on as a carryon.
OK, I digress from the OP's question.
His hometown is Dresden - actually a small suburb of Dresden called Radebeul.
One of my favorite late night (and I mean very late night) hangouts in Radebeul is actually the Karl May Saloon right on the main street that runs from Dresden to Meissen.
Decorated to the hilt with western memorabelia. US country music playing, line dancing, you name it. What a hoot!
The proprietor - don't know his name but I call him 'Tex' (I told you this was a very late night hangout, after other places have shut for the night). He's very appreciative of receiving Western gifts from any US visitors. Thought of bringing a nice set of 3' Texas long horns with me one time but didn't think TSA would let them on as a carryon.
OK, I digress from the OP's question.
Apr 8th, 2005, 09:27 AM
#37
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E, first of all, I don't think anyone here has abused liiat. He asked a question, we tried to help clarify his intent and terminology (wouldn't you want someone to correct you - say, before you got off the plane and asked someone where the nearest "Indian Reserve" was? That would be a lot less embarassing, and there's no shame in ignorance - just the failure to correct it).
We have offered answers as to his original intent, and continued having a discussion on our own. As a previous poster said, that's what happens in public forums - discussion.
And as for the remark about being "generally uninformed", I think you need to think about your own myopia - you obviously don't know any of us, and have chosen to ignore the fact that several of us have advanced degrees and/or can speak to this issue with personal experience and insight. Aside from that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, anyway.
Furthermore, the suggestion about Red Lake was merely that - a suggestion on a topic that could give new insight to the OP. No one was berating liiat for anything. Had they said, "You idiot, don't you know what just happened in Red Lake?", that would be different. What place2u wrote was (and, I cut and paste)
"For an example of this, read the recent news stories of the school shootings in MN."
Why be so quick to fly off the handle? Liiat even says thanks and that he is going to research more on this topic - who are you to say we haven't helped?
We have offered answers as to his original intent, and continued having a discussion on our own. As a previous poster said, that's what happens in public forums - discussion.
And as for the remark about being "generally uninformed", I think you need to think about your own myopia - you obviously don't know any of us, and have chosen to ignore the fact that several of us have advanced degrees and/or can speak to this issue with personal experience and insight. Aside from that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, anyway.
Furthermore, the suggestion about Red Lake was merely that - a suggestion on a topic that could give new insight to the OP. No one was berating liiat for anything. Had they said, "You idiot, don't you know what just happened in Red Lake?", that would be different. What place2u wrote was (and, I cut and paste)
"For an example of this, read the recent news stories of the school shootings in MN."
Why be so quick to fly off the handle? Liiat even says thanks and that he is going to research more on this topic - who are you to say we haven't helped?
Apr 8th, 2005, 12:16 PM
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OMG patrick, you read my mind, I saw this topic and thought, what the heck is in Indian Preserves...maize ? But I thought it would offend...you handled it eloquently, as usual LOL ! Great job to lighten this up.
