Hawaii Revealed Guidebooks
Dec 14th, 2006 | 05:54 AM
#61
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 33
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We've been to the islands several times over the years, and have used the Revealed guide books for each trip. We've found them very helpful. In fact, following their advise made each trip memorable (so much that we've returned 4 times)! Not to mention, many local businesses received our patronage that wouldn't have without the book's recommendations.
Regarding the Maui Olivine Pools: earlier this year we went to the pools and were definitely careful (per the book warnings: Be careful around the (blow) hole... avoid getting too close to the unpredictable ocean, which could always send a large wave to pick you off... it can get windy enough that you'll want to blow off this attraction... footing can be awkward and a bit slippery... be certain to bring everything out that you bring in). Tell me exactly, how much more warning should they give?
When we were at the pools, it was the locals who demonstrated unsafe behavior. They were jumping off the cliff into the pool, AND getting close to the ocean edge. Of course, my 10-year-old daughter wanted to try. NOT. So, I guess if we are blaming the guide book for injury and fatality (disclosing location), the locals also share in the blame for their actions (demonstration)???
Another case in point: Maui Nakalele Blowhole. When we went to the hole, it wasn't blowing very much. There were probably 6 families there sitting on the perimeter, waiting for something to happen. Again, the book warns not to get close to the hole as conditions change rapidly. Some moron photographer takes his model right up next to the hole and starts shooting. She is barefoot and in a swimsuit (on the lava near a blowhole... hello). As we are all watching in amazement, she lies down and sticks her head down the hole. Okay, nothing happened to her, but if that thing shot off, who's fault is it? The guidebook?
The warnings in the book are sufficient. People need to take responsibility for their own actions while exploring nature. Of course there are dangers... of course you should use common sense! The book tells you to check local conditions, and it definitely warns you to be careful. Can it be any clearer?
Regarding the Maui Olivine Pools: earlier this year we went to the pools and were definitely careful (per the book warnings: Be careful around the (blow) hole... avoid getting too close to the unpredictable ocean, which could always send a large wave to pick you off... it can get windy enough that you'll want to blow off this attraction... footing can be awkward and a bit slippery... be certain to bring everything out that you bring in). Tell me exactly, how much more warning should they give?
When we were at the pools, it was the locals who demonstrated unsafe behavior. They were jumping off the cliff into the pool, AND getting close to the ocean edge. Of course, my 10-year-old daughter wanted to try. NOT. So, I guess if we are blaming the guide book for injury and fatality (disclosing location), the locals also share in the blame for their actions (demonstration)???
Another case in point: Maui Nakalele Blowhole. When we went to the hole, it wasn't blowing very much. There were probably 6 families there sitting on the perimeter, waiting for something to happen. Again, the book warns not to get close to the hole as conditions change rapidly. Some moron photographer takes his model right up next to the hole and starts shooting. She is barefoot and in a swimsuit (on the lava near a blowhole... hello). As we are all watching in amazement, she lies down and sticks her head down the hole. Okay, nothing happened to her, but if that thing shot off, who's fault is it? The guidebook?
The warnings in the book are sufficient. People need to take responsibility for their own actions while exploring nature. Of course there are dangers... of course you should use common sense! The book tells you to check local conditions, and it definitely warns you to be careful. Can it be any clearer?
Dec 14th, 2006 | 08:36 AM
#62
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
I like those books, too, but the safety warnings in them are rather incidental. Much of what they recommend is based on their own experience, rather than from input by those whose life work is to study these environments. As safety experts in Hawaii like to say "common sense is not enough." Here's a new resource....
http://oceansafety.soest.hawaii.edu/
http://oceansafety.soest.hawaii.edu/
Dec 14th, 2006 | 08:37 AM
#63
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,725
Likes: 0
Kendra-
as far as your comments about the locals demonstrating unsafe behavior, I would venture to guess that as locals they generally have more experience than a tourist in evaluating the conditions.
I would not take their actions (as I doubt they would themselves) as an indicator that it's ok for anyone else to follow.
Obviously everyone needs to take some responsibility for their actions. Where I have a problem with the books is that they may not effectively convey how dangerous some areas may be and the recommendation of sights that may involve trespassing to get to.
as far as your comments about the locals demonstrating unsafe behavior, I would venture to guess that as locals they generally have more experience than a tourist in evaluating the conditions.
I would not take their actions (as I doubt they would themselves) as an indicator that it's ok for anyone else to follow.
Obviously everyone needs to take some responsibility for their actions. Where I have a problem with the books is that they may not effectively convey how dangerous some areas may be and the recommendation of sights that may involve trespassing to get to.
Dec 14th, 2006 | 09:40 AM
#64
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,514
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My problem with these types of books is that their "disclaimers" and warnings about not trespassing on private or restricted government land is a joke, and is not intended to be taken seriously.
The books may say something like "access is only available by crossing private property, which is illegal" and then proceed to tell you EXACTLY how to cross that private property. Or the warning are more vague, such as "the last we checked, access to Haiku Stairs was still off-limits." Then they tell you the exact path to enter Haiku Stairs.
Do the books really expect people to do independent research at the State's land court to find out exactly where private property boundaries are? No, of course people won't do that.
The crowded tourist sites are inevitable. So are the dangers of nature. But information on how to tresspass on private and government property is just irresponsible, depite the books' feeble disclaimers.
The books may say something like "access is only available by crossing private property, which is illegal" and then proceed to tell you EXACTLY how to cross that private property. Or the warning are more vague, such as "the last we checked, access to Haiku Stairs was still off-limits." Then they tell you the exact path to enter Haiku Stairs.
Do the books really expect people to do independent research at the State's land court to find out exactly where private property boundaries are? No, of course people won't do that.
The crowded tourist sites are inevitable. So are the dangers of nature. But information on how to tresspass on private and government property is just irresponsible, depite the books' feeble disclaimers.
Dec 20th, 2006 | 05:44 PM
#65
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Another two die in Kauai, falling off a "secret" trail, article takes a swipe at some websites and guides:
http://tinyurl.com/yjefb8
http://tinyurl.com/yjefb8
Dec 20th, 2006 | 08:40 PM
#67
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
I've used the "blue bibles" to plan various trips to Hawaii, but have also found that this new book has all sorts of safety advice, with stories to illustrate, that the revealed guides don't have.
http://www.survivingparadisehawaii.com/buy_the_book.php
http://www.survivingparadisehawaii.com/buy_the_book.php
Dec 21st, 2006 | 05:06 AM
#68
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,969
Likes: 0
"Oh semiramis,
have you been to the site of the drownings to give a first hand opinion? I hadn't realized."
Yes I have - did I climb down to the pools - no - because I have common sense and it looked potentially risky to me (no quick exit if large waves started coming in and just falling on the lava rock looked like a possibility). I also avoided swimming at South Point because it seemed potentially dangerous. But actually my worst moment was when I got wacked by a big wave on a popular public beach when I was on Maui (near the Westin) (husband had to drag me out) - MY fault - I turned my back on the ocean. Does that mean I would discourage people from going to Hawaiian beaches - of course not! But I would tell them that my momentary inattention caused me a sore knee for 3 days and a minor scare.
All I am saying is people have to use common sense - look and think about it and if there are warnings posted - follow them (we saw idiots at the blowhole on Maui too). The truth is you cannot protect people from their own stupidity, inattention and pure bad luck. Blaming a guide book when people CHOOSE to take risks is absurd. We all have to accept some personal responsibility for our own actions.
have you been to the site of the drownings to give a first hand opinion? I hadn't realized."
Yes I have - did I climb down to the pools - no - because I have common sense and it looked potentially risky to me (no quick exit if large waves started coming in and just falling on the lava rock looked like a possibility). I also avoided swimming at South Point because it seemed potentially dangerous. But actually my worst moment was when I got wacked by a big wave on a popular public beach when I was on Maui (near the Westin) (husband had to drag me out) - MY fault - I turned my back on the ocean. Does that mean I would discourage people from going to Hawaiian beaches - of course not! But I would tell them that my momentary inattention caused me a sore knee for 3 days and a minor scare.
All I am saying is people have to use common sense - look and think about it and if there are warnings posted - follow them (we saw idiots at the blowhole on Maui too). The truth is you cannot protect people from their own stupidity, inattention and pure bad luck. Blaming a guide book when people CHOOSE to take risks is absurd. We all have to accept some personal responsibility for our own actions.
Dec 21st, 2006 | 05:55 AM
#70
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Dec 21st, 2006 | 06:17 AM
#71
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,068
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sistahlou - thanks for that site. I'm really NOT amazed just how arrogant Andrew Doughty is. Of course if he actually took some responsibility and admitted that parts of his books lead people to dangerous places, he'd probably be sued... one can only hope...
Dec 21st, 2006 | 08:48 AM
#72
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,725
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That article about Doughty really angers me.
I'm sure that even if the State closes off an area, he will continue to write about it in his books, include a feeble disclaimer about not trespassing and still provide instruction on just how to do it.
I'm sure that even if the State closes off an area, he will continue to write about it in his books, include a feeble disclaimer about not trespassing and still provide instruction on just how to do it.
Dec 21st, 2006 | 09:24 AM
#74
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,725
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yes, the damage is already done.
Honestly, I had never heard of these guidebooks until several years ago, here on Fodor's. I live here (in Hawaii, born and raised), so I don't really need a guidebook.
I can tell you though, that it is absolutely true that tragic tourist deaths/accidents here are all too frequent.
When reading/hearing in the news the details of many of these accidents, all I can do is wonder what these people were thinking. A guidebook that promotes some of these dangerous sites is a huge problem.
Honestly, I had never heard of these guidebooks until several years ago, here on Fodor's. I live here (in Hawaii, born and raised), so I don't really need a guidebook.
I can tell you though, that it is absolutely true that tragic tourist deaths/accidents here are all too frequent.
When reading/hearing in the news the details of many of these accidents, all I can do is wonder what these people were thinking. A guidebook that promotes some of these dangerous sites is a huge problem.
Dec 21st, 2006 | 07:04 PM
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
I found that article posted on tripadvisor. I was completely shocked by the arrogance of little andy's quotes.
After reading that - my dilemna is, should I burn my books on Molokai, which would be appropriate on the most hawaiin of islands? Or should I wait and burn them in a bonfire at Hanalei?
Either way I will say a little prayer for those who have died perhaps because of the dangerous suggestion from a guidebook.
I will also toast them for their spirit of adventure and apologize to them for the strangers on a travel forum who suggested ever so knowingly, as if they were there to witness their morbid end - that they DIED because they had NO COMMON SENSE.
That's like telling me that a dear friend of mine's Dad died last night because he didn't use COMMON SENSE crossing the street when he was struck by a hit and run driver and was taken off of life support due to brain damage.
Show a little humanity people. So many of you defend and arrogant bastard like Doughty and then turn around and blame a dead person.
Wake up! And say a little prayer for my friends Dad and his family. It will be a very blue Christmas.
Mahalo for the rant
Gyppie
After reading that - my dilemna is, should I burn my books on Molokai, which would be appropriate on the most hawaiin of islands? Or should I wait and burn them in a bonfire at Hanalei?
Either way I will say a little prayer for those who have died perhaps because of the dangerous suggestion from a guidebook.
I will also toast them for their spirit of adventure and apologize to them for the strangers on a travel forum who suggested ever so knowingly, as if they were there to witness their morbid end - that they DIED because they had NO COMMON SENSE.
That's like telling me that a dear friend of mine's Dad died last night because he didn't use COMMON SENSE crossing the street when he was struck by a hit and run driver and was taken off of life support due to brain damage.
Show a little humanity people. So many of you defend and arrogant bastard like Doughty and then turn around and blame a dead person.
Wake up! And say a little prayer for my friends Dad and his family. It will be a very blue Christmas.
Mahalo for the rant
Gyppie
Dec 22nd, 2006 | 06:22 AM
#78
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,068
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Brian - I have all the books, though mine are about 2 years old. And I've asked this in other discussions re these books...could you give me a few pages numbers where these numerous warnings are located? because I can't seem to find ANY in my copies, and no one else so far has been able to tell me where any of these warnings are... Thanks.
Dec 22nd, 2006 | 09:06 AM
#79
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Posts: n/a
Wow, he is an arrogant creep. I will not recommend these books to anyone. I also think he should be shunned for his lack of respect for legal restrictions on property acess, as well as his insensitivity to native Hawaiian issues. What a nasty man.
