For New Yorkers, how do you define"Upstate NY"?
Aug 10th, 2005, 10:11 AM
#43
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As someone originally from near Sacandago & living 20+ yrs in Albany-Schenectady area ... I've always heard "upstate" as being as Gekko describes, "north of NYC". I think of the term as more a political (NYC vs TheRestOfUs) than a geographical one.
I often refer to NY (and surrounding NJ/CT) as "metropolitan NY", and I also prefer more geographical descriptions such as Hudson Valley, Southern Tier, Central, Western, and Adirondack. The state likes to throw in "Leatherstocking" as well.
As much as I hate to admit it, yes, NYTraveler is correct on NYC supporting the rest of us. But Peterboy's also correct about the many square miles of land taken to support NYC reservoirs; a double-edged sword. They tend to keep areas pristine, due to the many environmental laws that came with them, but at the same time preventing certain economic growth nearby.
And read up about areas like near Gilboa where NYC Environmental officers are busying themselves with issuing traffic tickets, etc. to the locals and you'll see a lot of "fur fly"
I often refer to NY (and surrounding NJ/CT) as "metropolitan NY", and I also prefer more geographical descriptions such as Hudson Valley, Southern Tier, Central, Western, and Adirondack. The state likes to throw in "Leatherstocking" as well.
As much as I hate to admit it, yes, NYTraveler is correct on NYC supporting the rest of us. But Peterboy's also correct about the many square miles of land taken to support NYC reservoirs; a double-edged sword. They tend to keep areas pristine, due to the many environmental laws that came with them, but at the same time preventing certain economic growth nearby.
And read up about areas like near Gilboa where NYC Environmental officers are busying themselves with issuing traffic tickets, etc. to the locals and you'll see a lot of "fur fly"
Aug 10th, 2005, 11:02 AM
#44
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Peterboy -
I wasn't looking down my nose at you - merely correcting the facts. (If we don;t all operate from the real facts - rather than just wishful thinking - no problems can ever be really solved.)
I would suggest there would be a lot less upstate/city conflict if more people recognized the basic financial facts - rather than choosing to believe that the services provided to "poor people" (usually code words for racial stereotyping) in the city are coming out of their pockets - when in fact it's the other way around.
I wasn't looking down my nose at you - merely correcting the facts. (If we don;t all operate from the real facts - rather than just wishful thinking - no problems can ever be really solved.)
I would suggest there would be a lot less upstate/city conflict if more people recognized the basic financial facts - rather than choosing to believe that the services provided to "poor people" (usually code words for racial stereotyping) in the city are coming out of their pockets - when in fact it's the other way around.
Aug 10th, 2005, 11:08 AM
#45
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"Peterboy: that wasn't very nicely put. Maybe you need a vacation!!!!!!"
Perhaps you're right laurieb but it sure won't be in NYC! Yuck!
Perhaps we should start charging for the water you all need down there then we wouldn't be so beholdin' to you city folk.
Perhaps you're right laurieb but it sure won't be in NYC! Yuck!
Perhaps we should start charging for the water you all need down there then we wouldn't be so beholdin' to you city folk.
Aug 10th, 2005, 11:18 AM
#46
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My father-in-law lives in Manhattan and has had a house in Rhinebeck for over 40 years.
Everyone in the family called Rhinebeck and the Hudson valley "upstate". But when I used this term to a friend she said, "Oh that's just upstate Manhattan not really upstate New York" !
Everyone in the family called Rhinebeck and the Hudson valley "upstate". But when I used this term to a friend she said, "Oh that's just upstate Manhattan not really upstate New York" !
Maybe that's why we consider it a part of western NY.
Aug 10th, 2005, 11:48 AM
#48
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Peterboy -
This is the problem. Certainly we will be happy to pay for the water. As soon as you give back the money for everything else.
Either we share fairly as partners - or we each do cash and carry. Either way - NYC would come out far ahead of where it is now.
You don;t want either - just to vilify us while taking all the benefits.
(This reminds me of reactionary well-to-do white males - who feel "cheated" that women and minorities are now starting to achieve things that they think are "theirs" - they have gotten everything automatically for so long that they really do think everything is rightfully theirs.)
This is the problem. Certainly we will be happy to pay for the water. As soon as you give back the money for everything else.
Either we share fairly as partners - or we each do cash and carry. Either way - NYC would come out far ahead of where it is now.
You don;t want either - just to vilify us while taking all the benefits.
(This reminds me of reactionary well-to-do white males - who feel "cheated" that women and minorities are now starting to achieve things that they think are "theirs" - they have gotten everything automatically for so long that they really do think everything is rightfully theirs.)
Aug 10th, 2005, 12:12 PM
#49
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I would think that NYC does in fact pay for the water. I can't imagine them getting it for free.
The question is, who do they pay the money to? Answer: Not Peterboy. And rightfully so. Why? Because chances are that Peterboy doesn't own the reservoir land, nor the water company. Maybe he wishes he did, and I wouldn't blame him! Whoever previously owned the land was duly compensated whenever it was taken over for a reservoir--that's called eminent domain. And yes, I know there's a lot of debate about that these days, but I think most reasonable people will agree that taking land for a reservoir is a much more proper public use than taking land for a shopping mall. Bottom line, NYC isn't getting a free ride here.
But then I suspect Peterboy knows that. His comments about NYC ("Yuck") show his true feelings. Funny, I don't recall anyone badmouthing upstate New York. On the contrary, I read lots of good things about it on this forum. Sounds like he had a bad experience in NYC, and that makes me sad, but it's no justification for an angry condemnation of millions of his fellow statesmen and women.
The question is, who do they pay the money to? Answer: Not Peterboy. And rightfully so. Why? Because chances are that Peterboy doesn't own the reservoir land, nor the water company. Maybe he wishes he did, and I wouldn't blame him! Whoever previously owned the land was duly compensated whenever it was taken over for a reservoir--that's called eminent domain. And yes, I know there's a lot of debate about that these days, but I think most reasonable people will agree that taking land for a reservoir is a much more proper public use than taking land for a shopping mall. Bottom line, NYC isn't getting a free ride here.
But then I suspect Peterboy knows that. His comments about NYC ("Yuck") show his true feelings. Funny, I don't recall anyone badmouthing upstate New York. On the contrary, I read lots of good things about it on this forum. Sounds like he had a bad experience in NYC, and that makes me sad, but it's no justification for an angry condemnation of millions of his fellow statesmen and women.
Aug 10th, 2005, 01:28 PM
#51
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I guess that being born in NYC and hanging out in Westchester... I would refer to anything near Albany as upstate!
But when we were kids we use to get excited when we were going to the lake in "upstate" New Jersey!! Go fgure!!
John
But when we were kids we use to get excited when we were going to the lake in "upstate" New Jersey!! Go fgure!!
John
Aug 11th, 2005, 05:17 PM
#52
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Oh good grief, folks, let's chill out a bit. This has gone from light-hearted banter to heavy duty swiping, and arguments about taxation equitability in New York, though interesting, are not really appropriate for a travel site anyhow.
Aug 11th, 2005, 08:09 PM
#54
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Buffalo is definitely NOT "upstate"! There's Central NY - (Syracuse) the Southern Tier (Binghampton, Olean) "Upstate" (no one knows for sure except the Mohawk nation) and "Western NY" (Buffalo) But we only hear about the indefinable "upstate" from our ignorant tv reporters.
Aug 11th, 2005, 08:13 PM
#55
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I second the latest post of ckwald. I'm new to these forums, found this topic interesting -- at first, then got increasingly chilled by the drift. I was beginning to fear this was standard procedure here; I'm going to assume it's not.
Returning to the topic, as many have suggested, it seems to depend on where you're looking from, or where your perspective got formed. That's if you're considering the question as a matter of the sort of vernacular terminology we use to describe locations, by their position relative to other locations. This is not merely or even mostly a geographic distinction, since everybody has a different perspective on how one area (such as the one he or she came from, or lives in) relates to other areas; the Steinbergian view echoed in some of these posts is of course the classic for Manhattanites.
I got curious about whether there was an "official" distinction of upstate, downstate, etc., so I looked at some NY State .gov sites. As far as I can tell, the answer is yes and no. Unless I missed something (very possible, given the short time I spent), it seems as if there are as many "official" schemes of NY regions as there are government agencies with responsibilities of various kinds in the state -- in other words, they're legion. E.g., there's one scheme that pertains to the labor force, another to education, another to environmental concerns, another to the geology of the state as part of the east coast, etc ad infinitum.
Some of these classifications reflect roughly geographical differences, others pertain to tourism (the "Capitol Region," the "Leatherstocking Region," etc.), others to commercial concerns (so we get into various acronyms for different metropolitan or regional statistical areas, based on population density); and on and on.
I don't think there's any absolute "right" answer, as the government implicitly acknowledges. It's more interesting, at least to me, to ponder the reasons for the differences in the way we see and describe places and their relation to one another. But I don't see any place in such a discussion for heated argument.
And now I'm getting the heck out of here and going back to concerns of how to enjoy travel.
Returning to the topic, as many have suggested, it seems to depend on where you're looking from, or where your perspective got formed. That's if you're considering the question as a matter of the sort of vernacular terminology we use to describe locations, by their position relative to other locations. This is not merely or even mostly a geographic distinction, since everybody has a different perspective on how one area (such as the one he or she came from, or lives in) relates to other areas; the Steinbergian view echoed in some of these posts is of course the classic for Manhattanites.
I got curious about whether there was an "official" distinction of upstate, downstate, etc., so I looked at some NY State .gov sites. As far as I can tell, the answer is yes and no. Unless I missed something (very possible, given the short time I spent), it seems as if there are as many "official" schemes of NY regions as there are government agencies with responsibilities of various kinds in the state -- in other words, they're legion. E.g., there's one scheme that pertains to the labor force, another to education, another to environmental concerns, another to the geology of the state as part of the east coast, etc ad infinitum.
Some of these classifications reflect roughly geographical differences, others pertain to tourism (the "Capitol Region," the "Leatherstocking Region," etc.), others to commercial concerns (so we get into various acronyms for different metropolitan or regional statistical areas, based on population density); and on and on.
I don't think there's any absolute "right" answer, as the government implicitly acknowledges. It's more interesting, at least to me, to ponder the reasons for the differences in the way we see and describe places and their relation to one another. But I don't see any place in such a discussion for heated argument.
And now I'm getting the heck out of here and going back to concerns of how to enjoy travel.
Aug 11th, 2005, 10:28 PM
#57
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Having grown up in Buffalo, I always thought of it as "upstate"...along with being Western N.Y. To me, Jamestown and points south were also in western new york but also referred to as the southern tier . When it comes down to it, my definition of upstate is anything north of nyc.
Buffalo Girl: Wolf Blitzer grew up in Buffalo (not Syracuse)...went to hebrew school with him...family owned a deli on Hertel Avenue
Buffalo Girl: Wolf Blitzer grew up in Buffalo (not Syracuse)...went to hebrew school with him...family owned a deli on Hertel Avenue
Aug 12th, 2005, 04:04 AM
#58
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"For God's sake upstate NY is Canada."
That's funny, Jorr!
Giro, thanks for clearing that up. If that's true, than Wolf should know better! Where was the deli on Hertel Ave.? I live near Hertel/Parkside.
That's funny, Jorr!
Giro, thanks for clearing that up. If that's true, than Wolf should know better! Where was the deli on Hertel Ave.? I live near Hertel/Parkside.
Aug 12th, 2005, 06:17 AM
#59
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I was a Syracusan born and bred, now a Manhattanite for many years. Upstate to me is north of Westchester, and it's where I grew up. I think 'upstate' was developed as a euphemism for "not NYC and its suburbs) and I grew up thinking that Buffalo, as well as Elmira, were also upstate.
