GoTravel

Thank you for pointing out the fact that we, as US citizens, are too stupid to know a simple geography fact.

Glyn_Williams

GoTravel

Hey, no worries for pointing out that simple geographical fact. I wouldn't call it simple really, since so few people knew about it during my recent world travels.

Hope that l have educated a few people here.

easytraveler

Not to be pro or agin anybody or anything, but

Americans tend to be terribly unknowledgeable about "georgraphy"

and now that the kids are taking "social science" classes, they are not learning anything about history either.

Please, let's not forget the history of it all: these were tribes fighting one another, allying with one another - the concept of "nation" is pretty recent. Even more so, the concept of "mega-empire" - so now that the mega-British empire has disappeared, we see the old divisions coming to the fore again. You can't really wipe out people's identities without wiping out the entire people as well. There's always the bond of language, customs, food, music, homeland, etc. etc. Whether the Welsh will ever be independent again, or the Scots - well, I don't know. The Irish did it, so why not the others?

The longerlasting "nations", "empires" are those that made some conscious effort to get everyone to identify themselves as part of the whole. (Remember the story of Ben Hur, who was Jewish, but was adopted and became a Roman - there's got to be systems like that allowing more universal "citizenship"). Usually unity is achieved through military might, but once that military might is gone, staying in unity remains a voluntary choice. The choice is made depending on whether remaining within the unity is of benefit to the individual pieces or not.

It took centuries to build up the unity called "Great Britain" or the "United Kingdom". Will it stay that way? I dunno, it's not my place to say.

I can tell you my personal preference and that is that Wales and Scotland were independent, but become members of the Commonwealth and the EU - voluntarily. But, then, I'm not much for empires, whether Ottoman, Roman, British, Chinese, or American.

There, gardyloo, I tried. Not very good, but there you have it.

Gardyloo

It's rather more mundane, actually. Wales and Ireland were conquered militarily. Scotland and England (meaning England, Wales, the English colonies, Ireland, and damn near everyone else) were merged by the "Union of the Crowns" in 1603, when the Scottish (Stuart) royal family (James VI of Scotland, who became James I of England) became next in line to the English throne, following the demise of the Tudors (Elizabeth I). The Union of the Parliaments occured a hundred years later (1707 actually), merging the English (/Welsh/Irish) and Scottish Parliaments.

The UK Parliament makes laws for the constituent countries within the UK, but because Scotland had a different legal system prior to the Unions, many domestic laws passed in the UK actually have separate Scottish and English/Welsh versions. Same thing applies (with wrinkles) to N. Ireland during periods of "direct rule" (from London.)

If you look at the British (UK) flag that was used during the US Revolutionary War, you'll see that it consists of a red and white vertical/horizontal cross and a blue and white diagonal cross. The red-on-white flag is the English flag, the white-on-blue flag is Scotland's. The overlay of one on top of the other made the first "Union Jack."

Barbara

But if Scotland and Wales became completely independent, which Commonwealth would they join? There would be no British Commonwealth, because without Scotland and Wales there is no Britain. So that brings you back to the fact that many people, including a large number of English people, do not understand the relationship between the countries now.

coldwar27

Have no fear, this is on the Europe forum too so more people can be told how dumb they are. I teach this lesson in the 7th grade. It's one thing to be a teacher but another to be condescending. By the way, not to nitpick of course but the UK is Great Britain plus Northern Ireland. Technically, Great Brtain and UK are not interchangeable. Not that I'm being picky but if you are going to point out the error of our ways, don't have an error!

Rusty

One dumb American named John F. Kennedy wrote a book about World War II called "Why England Slept" (or maybe someone else wrote it for him).

lenleigh

Did these "ignorant" people ask you what part of England you are from based off your accent or because you were in England at the time? If I was in England and I met someone that I assumed lived in England, I woud ask that question. If I met someone that had what sounded like an english accent I would ask them where they were from. Now I can usually tell the difference between English, Scottish and Irish (and I am sure there are many more dialects) but there are a lot of people that might not be able to tell the difference (especially those who have not traveled to Great Britain). I doubt that everyone in Great Britain is up to speed on U.S. geography either but you don't hear us complaining about it.

Ani

Ok so the phrasing of the post was a little aggressive (although, sadly, accurate for MOST of Americans-just not many on THIS forum...I mean, we're all about traveling and discovering other cultures-a bit more geographically educated than most Americans, I would think)-so, perhaps misplaced.
That said, I would not appreciate having to deal with that kind of ignorance, either.

jor

Glyn, you English faded glory twit. We really don't care where you are from. Maybe you have been asked because they just wanted to be nice to you. I have run into arogant English twits like you in my travels. You quiz people about jolly ol' England and your faded kingdom to see how much you can make others feel bad in your mind.

American midwesterner who knows more about you than you think.

Glyn_Williams

jor, you will be pleased to hear that l am not from England, and do not like being called English or being related to England in any way.

I am in fact a decendant of Wales, yes that little country next to England that most Americans seem to believe is a part of England, but l now live in Dublin.

You may not be quite aware of the fact that each of the home nations (which is what the British call Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland) deteste being related to England in any way. I agree with your comment that a lot of the English are twits. But a lot are actually quite nice people. Maybe you should get to know a few before making quick assumed judgements on previous experiences?

Going back to the current political situation, as discussed in one of the messages: the main laws currently in effect in England and Wales are made by Her Majesty's Parliament. Scottish laws are made mainly by the Scottish Parliament, although many of their laws are made by the English & Welsh Parliament.

Confused yet?

This is where it gets even worse.

Her Majesty's Parliament agreed in c. 2000 that there should be more powers given to the Welsh, Scottish and Irish countries, and so each country set up their own new Parliament. Each has a set of 'assembly members' for Wales or 'members of the Scottish Parliament' for Scotland. The Irish Government has had their powers taken away from them due to the current IRA situation.

There are many people in Wales and Scotland who are keen to be independant from England, however as it remains, the countries will be as one, known as Britain for some years to come.

Hope this provides a bit of info on what is clearly a complicated and unknown subject for many people around the world!

jor

Glyn, I have in fact been in England several times and talked to many English people. I also worked in London at a restaurant several years ago. Perhaps I ran into a few bad apples which are not representative of all the English, but some of them were indeed arogant twits. Later in traveling in Ireland and Scotland I learned about the side of England which I never knew before.

I toured the Scottish Parliament building site three years ago when it was under construction and learned more about how Scotland fits into the whole of Britain and the UK.

I wish Britain would leave Northern Irland and I see no reason why Ireland cannot be reunited as one nation. I have never been to Ulster and will not until Britain leaves, so I guess I will never go there.

Barbara

Jor, if you went to Northern Ireland, you'd discover that most of the people who live there want to be part of the UK, not part of the Republic of Ireland.

nytraveler

Barbara,

This is like an Italian family moving to the US, spending several gnerations living there and then deciding it should really be part of Italy.

Well, in that case, why don't they go back to England or Scotland or where ever they originally emigrated from and and leave Ireland to the Irish.

Barbara

ny, well, no it's not at all. When those of Scottish heritage moved there, N. Ireland was already part of the UK. The only "almost" parallel I can think of in the US would be Hawaii.

lenleigh

How did this become a turf war conversation? Glyn, you come off as extremly arrogant. England is a beautiful, diverse, interesting place to visit but you can only condemm it. I am sure Wales is very nice as well but I hope you don't represent the attitude of most "decendants". Feel free to distance yourself from more places than just England.

Barbara

I don't agree that Glyn seems arrogant. He made a big mistake posting this perpetual complaint here. Most people here do understand that Britain and England are not interchangeable terms. Unfortunately, many members of the media don't and it does get to be annoying to hear and read almost every day about the "English parliament" or Tony Blair, the "English" prime minister. I think that is all that Glyn meant.

Glyn_Williams

Thank you Barbara, l am just trying to raise awareness of a topic that l felt was a problem during my recent travels.

I don't see why l can be called arrogant - l am simply advising people on a simply geographical fact that not many people actually realise.

Is there such a problem in doing that?

Surely that is why this forum has been put in place?

Neil_Oz

As a simple Aussie I'm reluctant to intrude on this scholarly debate, but Glyn, you really should stop winding up our American cousins.

I know that many American authors refer to a "British accent" when they mean an (Oxbridge) English accent. But let him who is without sin, etc. I mean, I once found myself listening to a monologue by a young man in a bar, and spent fully 5 minutes trying to puzzle out which obscure Central European language he was speaking before finally realising that he was a Liverpudlian.

For our part, while travelling in the USA we were assumed to be from either England, South Africa, Georgia, "up No'th" or occasionally and correctly, Australian. To be fair, this is entirely understandable if you don't speak like the Crocodile Hunter, who unlike me has appeared on the Oprah Winfrey show.

Despite the jokes common here, very few Americans have turned up in Sydney looking for Mozart's birthplace and a good apfelstrudel, and the fact that the Austrians sell tee shorts bearing the slogan "We're the ones without kangaroos" is just evidence of the Teutonic sense of humour. As a fellow colonial, I say leave the Yanks alone.

michi

If someone asks me "What part of Canada are you from" the answer is simple. I'm from the Province of Ontario, and the City of Toronto. I don't understand the difficulty with "Where in England are you from?" I know it's a small country but still...

Gardyloo, I totally agree with your comment that America refers to something larger than the United States but you left out Canada. For those who haven't consulted a map lately, there are two Americas: north and south, but people overseas (that is, on the other side of the Atlantic or Pacific) like to call the United States "America." This is borne out by the current popular movie "In America," where an Irish family emigrates to New York City via Toronto, Canada. My feelings were hurt. So the next time an overseas person says to me, "I'm going to America," I would feel justified in saying "north or south"?

Gardyloo, you say that Queen Elizabeth II is only Queen Elizabeth II in England and Wales. In Canada she is Queen Elizabeth II too. I mean she is Queen Elizabeth II also -- oh forget it. I rushed to get my $20 Canadian bill for proof because it has almost a lifesize portrait of the Queen's head on it. You live and learn. Nowhere does it say her name or her number. I took a magnifying glass to the small crest on the bill and there seems to be some writing but I think it's Latin and my elderly doctor is out of town. I think it's a counterfeit bill. I just read today crooks are going to smaller denominations.

Well it's been hilarious reading this thread. Neil proposed Australian threads were too tame and suggested we read this one so don't be surprised if you find hundreds of people from Oz writing in. Cheers everyone.