Roger

Liam's a bit of a pompous left-wing dimwit, Pam. Pay him no mind or laugh at him. The truths regarding your barbs with Liam are these: 1) the USA is experiencing an unprecedented Third World immigration explosion 2)most Americans are against this human tidal wave but the politicians of both parties support it for their own selfish reasons 3) the human tidal wave are mostly unskilled labor or, more aptly, low-skilled labor that all studies conclude are very hurtful to blue-collar workers who are long-term citizens of the USA 4) though 20 to a room is a bit of a stretch, it is common for two or three families of new immigrants to shack up in small houses and apartments 5) "white flight" is real and is practiced by whites who consider themselves non-racist 6) you're not a racist, Pam, for opposing ethnic demographic transformation of your neighborhood, town, county, state or nation 7) all the "well educated" Indians and East Asians who have flooded Silicon Valley have had a very negative effect on wages of American computer programmers, especially with the computer bubble busting, and are cynically used by "liberal" friends of mankind like Gates and Jobs and company.

Chris

Gee angry Roger says your not a racist Pam compliments don't come any higher than that. You must be very proud. Ever notice how he does not post unless something is racially charged. You are in such good company. What are you even doing on this forum Roger have you ever even taken a trip.

Andy

Roger,

What is the "so what" to your posting? Is it bad; good; neutral?

Liam

To Agree-with-Pam: Funny, I though my city was most famous for things like Paul Revere and clam chowdah. All white basketball team? Clearly, YOU are the one who needs to get out more.

To Roger: Unless you can trace your family tree back to the crossing of the Bering Sea land bridge 40,000 years ago, you are the progeny of an immigrant who likely displaced an "American" blue-collar worker. You and your bigoted friends have no right to pull up the draw-bridge just because your family line has "made it." The last time I looked at the Constitution, there is no cut-off date for citizenship.

And, by the way, Roger, this "pompous left-wing dimwit" is an ardent capitalist. I just happen to not hate people because they are different. Unfortunately, based on this and other racist rantings on this board, I do not think you can say the same.

steve

Roger, your comment that the US is undergoing an "unprecedented" increase in immigration is almost as ignorant as most of your other ranting. Check your history books about the immigration in the 1880's and 90's. There were lots of racists then who also criticized the "unprecedented" immigration. Of course, the percentage increase in our country during those years was much greater than today. And ditto for the 1840's and 1850's. All the comments you make about todays immigrants were at least as accurate about the earlier immigrants. But maybe you don't refer to those earlier immigrant waves because your ancestors came at that time?

Roger, at least you can take comfort in knowing that your perspective is drawn from a long line of racist views on immigration. Thankfully, your viewpoint thas usually been in the minority.

L

Good morning to you, Bitterpants. Here's a horrible thought ... what if you were in school and your teacher told you to diagram that mess. Wowwee. Actually, I know you wouldn't agree, but I earn my keep on this site, and have some fun at it. I'm a virtual welcome wagon for DC and environs, and always available for a handy tip on the NYC dress code. No one has said, actually, but would I be rash to suggest many have benefitted. Ciao to you, and try not to have a bitter weekend. Leone

bennie

Liam - Thanks for the defense of Boston. I thought we were now more famous for the Big Dig than our formally all white basketball team. What do these people know anyway?

Couple of comments - who decided that all white people are the same? I am Irish-American. I have as much or as little in common with a white from South Africa as I do with a black from Jamaica. In both cases we wouldn't share the same language, the same music or food.

My parents were immigrants to this country. My father grew up on a farm in a remote part of Ireland, where he did not speak English until he was 12, didn't know what a fork was, grew up in a culture with that was completely distinct from European culture. Ireland has its own language, music, history and stories. My mother grew up in a part of Ireland where some of what was uniquely Irish had been lost. Though she was taught Irish in school she could not communicate to her in-laws except in English. Compare this to my in-laws who are Italian, have their own language, art, music etc. Nothing like what I grew up with.

The color of my skin may be white but don't make the mistake of thinking that there is no diversity among whites. Just come to one of my family gatherings and you'll see.

And I think I have more values in common with other recent immigrants than I do with whites from the Midwest who have no idea what their ethnic background is or think immigration is harmful to the US, people who think everyone should forget their native tongues. Yet people on this board and elsewhere continue catagorize all people with white skin as if we all shared a common background. You couldn't be more wrong.

Roger

Dear Punk, I mean Liam,
Your epiteth of racist is childish and dishonest; there is nothing I said that would lead an honest person from concluding I have any hate for any ethnic group. Got it. Nations have a right to regulate immigration and who they allow inside their borders. Today, Australia and Prime Minister Howard are drawing the line regarding Third World immigration. Are they racist? If you think it is racist for Australia to turn away the Afghani and Iranian migrants on that boat off Christmas Island, Liam, why not call the Australian embassy to protest. The number is (202) 797-3000. I find it funny that liberals and libertarians and neo-conservatives like Jack Kemp and Ben Wattenberg like to throw around the "racist" tag whenever someone doesn't agree to massive immigration into their country. Makes me happy that the wife and I are homeschooling our kids; Liam is obviously the result of the left-wing Deweyite indoctrination program of the public schools.

Liam

Roger - wrong again; try conservative schooling by Catholic nuns and priests in both grammar and high school. Your assumptions about me are about as accurate as your assumptions about all immigrants. If you scroll through the posts, one of my earlier postings clearly states that I do not believe a place NEEDS to be diverse to be a good place to visit or live (I prefer diversity, but not everyone values it as much - their choice).

Also, I never said that governments don't have the right to control their own immigration policy. The US (and Australia) are completely free to control their borders and determine their own immigration criteria. But once legally in the country each person has the same right to live where and with whom he or she chooses and has the same right to seek employment and acquire property as someone who (to quote Pam) "built our cities." Whether that means moving into a neighborhood of folks from the "old country" or being the first Dominican or Thai family on the block or living with 20 others in a tiny apartment is THEIR decision, not yours or Pam's.

Although the product of immigration yourself, you seem to opppose EVERYONE who is coming to America these days. That the majority of newcomers are "3rd worlders" (to paraphrase you) and that you either refuse to (or are unable) to see that your family was similarly viewed and hated in the past makes your short-sightedness appear to be bigotry. If you are not a racist, then I withdraw the comment, but I cannot help but notice that you have a tendency to express yourself in a very narrow minded manner. Whether that's racism of lack of exposure to different ideas is an issue for you to work through.

xxx

Racism is defined as (i) the belief that a particular race is superior to others, and (ii) discrimination or prejudice based on race. This does not mean we have to say nothing but positive, glowing remarks about anyone different than ourselves all the time. No one is above criticism, for without criticism nothing is learned and the status quo rules. My point is that to make an observation like "third world people who live twenty to a room" does not, in my opinion, make someone a racist, especially when the observation can be correct. Stereotypes don't become stereotypes unless there's an element of perceived truth.

curious

In answer to your original question the answer is no. IMO what a city needs to be a good place to live and visit is culture, interesting architecture, great and varied restaurants and cuisines, Good entertainment, theatre, museums, one of a kind shops, university(ies), interesting neighborhoods and preferable a port. However, these things do require a diverse population to exist, so the real answer to your question is yes.
I'd find much more pleasure in exploring an ethnic neighborhood than in knowing my McDonald's order was taken promptly! Thank god for differences in people and cultures, otherwise life would be so boring!
I don't mean to say a city like Bismark is bad or not easy to live in, it just isn't the kind of place I would get excited about visiting.

Leone

Okay, is it Bismark or Bismarck? I can't find the darn place on the map. Heck, I can't even locate ND. Is it near Gatlinburg by any chance? I probably need one of those faith-based maps. Ciao

?

Leone, here's an idea. You live in DC, and I presume in a house, right? Labor Day is over but why don't you have a Columbus Day barbeque and invite all of us? The only catch is that we have to use our Fodors names. C'mon man, it'll be a pisser. I'll bring a case of Heineken. Should be a rather "diverse" crowd, wouldn't you say?

Roger

What I object to, Liam, is the lazy branding of someone who has an opinion that is not accepted by the "mainstream", which, in the USA, is defined by a rather narrow selection of media. For instance, if you are against gay marriage, against more money spent on AIDS research, against gays in the military, against gay adoption and against gay scout leaders, lefties will label you a homophobe, fascist or reactionary. If you are against school busing, affirmative action, slavery reparations, the Martin Luther King Holiday, you will be labeled by the Left as a bigot, racist, fascist or reactionary. If you are against high immigration, the Left will label you a xenophobe, racist, nativist, fascist or a reactionary. If you are anti-abortion, the Left will label you a sexist, a religious fanatic, fascist or a reactionary. If you defend Western Culture, the Left will label you a xenophobe, bigot, nativist, sexist, homophobe, fascist, racist and a reactionary. If you live in North Carolina and you ever voted for Jesse Helms, the Left will label you a racist, bigot, xenophobe, nativist, homophobe, negrophobe, sexist, religious fanatic, fascist, reactionary and hater. That's the way a lot of intellectually lazy people like to argue. I think a lot of them are posters to the Fodors board. Have a nice weekend.

xxx

Roger, you nailed it.

Liam

Roger, I am not going to argue with the core of your message. You have every right to voice your own opinions, but you also need to look back to your own posts to see that sweeping generalizations about people who disagree with you is a two way street.

Tim

In my opinion, a city does not have to be diverse to be good. A "good" city is different for different people. I live in Charlotte N.C. which I enjoy immensely. It is a big enough city to have a some culture and traveling broadway shows which we attend, my wife likes the shopping and plenty of restaurants too. I am not claiming we are the most diverse city (though probably more so than Bismarck) At any rate, the schools are good, the area safe, and cost of living relatively low (we used to live in D.C. metro area) It also has one of MY requirements for a good city, temperate weather. I could never live in Bismarck as a city with that much, cold, snow and lack of sunshine would never be "good" to me. Good cities are subjective and some have a requirement of diversity and others don't, that simple.

Nan

I think this was the most interesting post ever on Fodors.

Ellen

And timely, too!

I just noticed this story, while looking at the news about the building collapse in New York. The story's headline: "A Melting Pot? NYC Is Actually Third Most Segregated In US"

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WAB...gregation.html

mick

A writer writes: "I live in Charlotte N.C. which I enjoy immensely.... I could never live in Bismarck as a city with that much, cold, snow and lack of sunshine would never be "good" to me."

Bismarck has fewer days of precip than Charlotte, more days above 90 degrees, and averages about 1 less day of sun per month than Charlotte. While I respect the writers views (and can intepret his or her point), I think we all have several "intangibles" that we look for in a city that are impossible to pin down. That is what makes my home, Madison WI, special to me but hard to explain to others why.