Good morning Heavens, just read your last post. You are obviously doing a super job trying to help your daughter figure out this big decision.

One thing I wanted to say though is my stepdaughter left UCSB for two years, and she did return to UCSB and got her degree. Take good care.

Heavens-First of all I want to say thank you for starting this thread. Also thanks to everyone who has made contributions to it. Lots of wonderful advice and support.

The reason I am thanking everyone is because this topic couldn't have been more timely. As I mentioned in several of my previous posts, my freshman daughter is going through the same thing at Cal State San Marcos. I had said before that she decided she would stick it out even though there is not much social life and she's struggling with her math class.

Well on Tuesday she had a meltdown over a paper that was due the next day. She had started the paper and had worked on it during the day but had total writer's block. At that point she just gave up. She said she hated the school so much and was so depressed she could barely go to class She just didn't care anymore. Obviously, lots of warning flags. I told her she could leave the school after the semester as long as we could sit down and come up with a plan. I also told her to get the paper finished so she wouldn't have to retake the class. I think she was so emotionally upset that the paper was furthest from her mind. I suggested she come home (we live 30 minutes away) and do the paper here where she was more comfortable and had support from me and her older sister.

To make a long story short, she got the paper turned in and now isn't sure whether she should leave at the end of the semester or the end of the year. She has an appointment with an academic counselor next week and I told her she had to go to the Clinic for a meeting with a counselor about her depression. She didn't argue with me about that one bit which is a good sign. I am so afraid that she thinks coming home will solve her problems but when she gets home the problems will still be there. If she does come home, she would attend classes at the local Jr. College.

LoveItaly, I had read your posts about your daughter and they were encouraging. Maybe a couple of years is what she needs before she moves back onto a campus. That will give her time to mature and see what she really wants to do.

Heavens-I know it is a huge decision. I told my daughter the same thing. The decision is final and you can't go back. But if they hate the school that much, then going back isn't really important to them and there are plenty of other options and plenty of other schools. We also have to make a decision in the next month as applications for the local JC have to be in by the end of November.

I am glad my daughter is willing to go to counseling and I appreciate everyone's thoughts and ideas. I know it will all work out for both of the girls.

escargot - Just wanted to say your advice was very wise. Every child is different. Thank you for reminding me that everyone finds their path and their way in their own time.

paula1470, don't let your own or family's perception be colored by the Junior College myths. Nor if that event occurs (her attending JC), think of it as a "second-rate" answer.

Believe it or not, within 5 different and some great Universities and Graduate schools I have attended, I think two of the very best teachers I had at any age of my life were in the Community Junior College system. Some of these are vastly under-rated. And that's a path that will lead to the same place- your daughter's happy and healthy future.

JJ5-I definitely don't think of JC's as "second-rate". Although I attended a four year college, both my sisters attended JC's before going on to a four year school.

The problem my daughter is facing is that she has to pass this "beginning" math class by the end of her freshman year or the school will disenroll her. She is taking this class because her math scores were not high enough for her to enroll in the regular class. She is close to failing the class now and is afraid she won't be able to pass it next semester. Math is difficult for her and she really has a mental block against it. This is why she is going to meet with the academic counselor next week.

My concern is that my daughter thinks classes at a JC won't be as hard as at a 4 yr college. I know this is not true and math will be a challenge for her no matter where she goes. On the other hand, one advantage of a JC is that she can take classes at a more leisurely pace. She can mix her required classes with others (she loves Drama) and maybe the pressure will be much less for her. If it takes a little longer to finish those first 60 units by going to a JC, at least it is more affordable at $26 a unit.

Honestly, at this point I am more worried about her being depressed and so unhappy. It's just hard to watch your child go through this and you hope you are giving the right advice. All you can really do is support and love them.

Heavens, I just have a few more comments re: your last post. But first, I want to say that you and your husband should be so proud of how you have handled this (talking, thinking, supporting, communicating, researching ideas) and not yelling, screaming, halting communications or giving ultimatums -or making emotional judgements instead of thinking with your heads as well as your hearts. - because there are many, many young people who are going through this (or a multitiude of other problems/decisions) and do not have the parental and family support your daugher has. I have seen so many parents turn this type of thing and instead of focusing on their kid turn it into something personal based on their own issues, whether or not they verbalize them like "she is disappointing us, or she is ruining OUR plan, or worse - forcing their kid to live their lives the way the parents dreamed they would to fulfill their own wishes and not the kids. You aren't doing any of that, and she must feel and appreciate that I am sure.
And I truly believe as a parent, this is one of THE most important life lessons you will ever present to your child. Just imagine the what she is learning from all of this, even if she doesn't realize it now - you two are, be example, teaching her how to handle anything that comes her way - taking her through all the steps; define the problem, analyze it, consider options, research the options, try and consider all possible angles and outcomes, make a preliminary decision, sit on it for a bit and see how it "fits" and then either follow through on that option or move to the next option. We have to do this constantly in life !

However, I do have two things you mentioned that I would play devil's advocate on -
Why would leaving mean she could "never go back there" ??? - I know kids who have left, taken a year off, gone elsewhere or worked or done a gap year, or worked and taken classes - and returned to their original school and hit the ground running. Or return years later or for grad school or other opportunities. This is not to say we want her saying I'm done here, and then two weeks later saying oh wait, I changed my mind - but what is ever forever? Perhaps she should consider a leave of absence? If not, then not, and she can move on b/c maybe she functions better putting it behind her and moving forward joyfully.

Second, you say you want to make sure she is sure so she never looks back and says "what if" - well, let me play devil's advocate again. Is that ever possible? perhaps that is too unrealistic to expect her to never want to voice "what if" or be reluctant to voice that feeling. I've made plenty of decisions in life and looked back and said "what if?" - and realize, I will never know because we never could unless we walked through the situation or experience. Good not to dwell on "what if's" but not so bad to voice them sometimes, better to voice them than to let them linger and fester. Like the old saying, you can't know what someone else feels if you aren't in their shoes or their skin - you can imagine, you can think of all the possibilities you can, all the possible outcomes, all the angles, and still after at some point go 'oops, I didn't think of that one" and/or wonder if "what if." - So it is ok to sometimes wonder "what if" and play that game and then realize "I will never know" - but it's ok, because the decision I made is what it is, I worked it out, my other choice was successful and if it wasn't, I'll make a successful choice next time I'm confronted with something like this not from my regrets, but from my experience. And sometimes there are just "what if's" in life - oh my gosh, I've got a zillion of them - what if I'd taken that job in Detroit years ago and never met my husband, what if I went to a different college than the one I'd chosen, would I have taken the same path, the same internships, the same major? what if I stayed in my old job instead of opening a new business a few years ago and didn't take that risk? oh well, such is life !! Contemplating and moving forward with all we know. So in my opinion, for me anyway, saying I can make a decision without ever contemplating a 'what if' on occasion seldom happens, but it happens as part of the process of real life decisions.

I think back to when my daughter asked me to choose her college, she was down to two and couldn't decide - and they both would have worked for her in my opinion, so I helped her make a list of pros and cons and said but now you have to make the final choice - this is your ultimate decision and your life and you will be living this plan, not me. I already lived my college years out a long time ago, now it's your turn. And if your choice doesn't work, you will learn a lot and go on to the next choice. And as my dad used to say to put things in perspective, "who has the brain tumor?" - meaning, there are bigger problems and decisions out there, and in the scheme of things, let's keep it all in perspective. your daughter sounds intelligent, is healthy, is communicating, and with incredible parental support - keep up the good work and keep your spirits up and keep it all in perspective.
Everyone on this post has been so helpful and supportive, and you have received wonderful ideas to consider. I think that all means a postiive outcome is in the future for you all.

paula1470, I see this all the time when students have to pass either a board after study or in Nursing, the Biochem. class to get into the program.

You have exactly the right idea- it will be accomplished when the surrounding "time" and criteria is different, if not just now. You are doing exactly the right thing by being so supportive and looking at the whole picture with her.

Believe me, it is NOT always the case to have such understanding and supportive parents who are represented on this thread. It's refreshening to me to hear such considerate parental musings without a hint of the "me" in them at all.

JJ5-Thanks for your kind words and escargot-thanks for all your thoughts. I will be honest-it's not always easy to only think about your child and not have some of that "ME" factor enter the picture. That's why I am so grateful for this thread and for some of the other links that posters provided. It helps to know that other students and parents are going through the same thing and people on this forum are always wonderful with their support and advice.

Of course, we all have expectations and hopes for our children. We want them to be successful, we want them to be happy and our own life experiences are a basis for those expectations. My experience in college was wonderful and my older daughter who just graduated from UC Irvine also had a great four years. In fact, if she had her way she'd still be taking classes and I have no doubt she'll go to grad school one day. I also heard so many people say they regretted not going away to a four year college (including my younger sister). So based on that background, I wanted my younger daughter to have the great experience I had and to not have any regrets later on. (escargot-I liked the way you addressed the "what if" issue).

But my daughter has to find what's right for her and if going to a JC or taking some time off to work makes her happy, I will support her even though it may not be what I would wish for her. I guess going through this growing-up process is not only for the kids but for their parents, too!!

I am so impressed with all the thoughtful and informative posts on this thread.

I wish there had been a Fodor's when we went through all the parenting issues years ago. That would have been a tremendous help. Although the way they all turned out it seems we made good decisions. But I imagine if we had all of you to turn to for advice and good thoughts it sure would have been a lot easier for us.

One thing, I wish there were younger people on Fodors, at least university age. I would imagine their thoughts and insights would be most interesting and helpful. Best wishes to all the parents that are wanting nothing but the very best for their children. Parenting is the hardest job in the world in my opinion. But it is sure worthwhile!

oh Paula, two of the things you said are, to me, part of the challenges of being a parent.
"We want them to be successful, we want them to be happy and our own life experiences are a basis for those expectations." - I and many of my friends have struggled with this temptation over the years - you said it exactly, we base what we perceive their success and happiness to be based on our own life experiences; and at the same time, we know, in our heads (and hearts) that that won't happen and is somewhat unrealistic - their success and their happiness will be based on their life experiences. Not from our experiences or stories - just like ours were done our way and not our parents. This isn't to say we can't give advice, and they sometimes take our advice, our knowledge, etc but some things they just have to experience for themselves.

You say don't want her to regret not going away to college like your younger sister regretted her decision; but maybe your daughter will never regret not going away. Maybe she will, but if that's the biggest regret of her life, all I can say is Allelulia! - My two children both went 4 hours plus away from home - I, on the other hand, commuted my first two years to a jc within an hour of home, I then transferred to a 4 yr college an hour from home, and commuted the first year and lived in an apt the last year. My first job, which I had 5 mths prior to graduation, entailed traveling 3 work days in another state, 2 workdays in my state, an hour from my parents home. So, why should I pay for an apartment I would not be in 4 nights a week? Yup, I moved back home for the 2 yrs of that job - and I would never have considered myself dependent or that I missed out on something I regret - I didn't have the "live in the dorm, party, roommate, etc" experience - I never looked at it like I didn't have "the college experience" I just had a different experience than the traditional one.
I worked, I contributed to the family home, had great internships,I partied plenty (there was always a friends dorm room to crash in) , I had plenty of independence, I traveled extensively every vacation and break, (even alone once from the east coast to hawaii b/c the 2 girls who were supposed to go, one couldn't bear to leave her new boyfriend (or was afraid to imo) and the other never got it together and saved the money) I never minded eating in a restaurant alone, I did a semester abroad, etc. That first job after graduation which took me four states away for 4 nights a week where I didn't know anyone - and I also made plenty of friends in college. But I liked my family, and being home, and still being part of our extended family which was all nearby and being there to help my relatives thru births, illnesses, deaths, babysitting, etc - I just didn't care so much about "going away to college" - and it wasn't b/c of lack of confidence or fearful of independence, it was just a choice that worked for me. In a day and age where we all lament the lack of family generations and relatives living close by like the old days, or we lament the vast geographical differences in our locations, why do we think there is something wrong with an 18 year old who either wants to stay near home or , in some cases mentioned in this post, isn't ready to leave home?
So instead of "leaving home" at 18, they leave at 19 or 20 or 21 or 22 - I don't think it means a parent needs to worry about what is wrong with their kid as in - why doesn't she want to leave? did we make her too dependent? did we mess up/ why doesn't she want to go away and have a life at college far away? - take it as it comes/ and if you fear any of the above (too dependent, immature, etc) isn't it better they are home where you can gradually assist them and work on these things rather than having a kid who doesn't want to be somewhere have to stay there? just keep an eye on it as you help them through their transition and their decisions and their choices. And who knows what their definition of "success and happiness" will be - maybe it will be being a multi millionaire business owner, or travel guide, a teacher, minister, or a fireman, or a butcher, baker or candelstick maker (couldn't resist) and maybe their success will have something to do with money or not, and truth be told, we parents really don't care if it does, as long as they are here, smiling and happy !! I mean it when I say the parents on this post are wonderful - the fact they care, talk about it, are open with their kids, and their kids know by that how much they love them,
Parenthood is a difficult job and it's a constant job - hopefully for all on this post, the joys will outweigh the worries. every parent on earth is in my prayers.

escargot-I agree 100% that what was a good experience for me, my older daughter and others may not be right for my younger daughter. I was just pointing out that our life experiences are what shapes our expectations for our children. I think I have been having an epiphany of sorts this week, realizing that what makes my daughter happy is really what counts. Backing off from your expectations (the me factor) is not always easy for a parent to do but it's the right things to do.

paula: I hope you didn't think I wasn't agreeing with you, (so much doesn't always come across in "email") - I agree our experiences shape our expectations for our kids - and the hardest thing sometimes about being a parent is realizing the childs expectations and goals may be very different than ours. I have a dear friend who knows her child is happy and doing good work (her son was in business, opted to change careers and go to med school and now a Dr. working in health clinics in poor areas around the world on grants or for free and making next to zero). Not what she had in mind for her Dr. son/ while she applauds on the one hand his caring and giving nature, and his sacrifices, (which he doesn't look at as sacrifices) she worries if he'll ever be able to live comfortably and pay of his loans and she won't have to worry about where he is all the time; he worries about none of this, and she knows he is so happy and engaged in his life work..just not what she had anticipated......I was just saying it is hard sometimes when they take a different path - and I am wondering sometimes where my youngest child's philosophy major will take him....somewhere happy I hope, as all parents do.

What an excellent example of
Fodors *community*.
I'm saving this thread for future reference as our children are
speeding closer and closer to that point in life.
Its wonderful to see such genuine
concern for the next fodorite
generation!

Escargot: Regarding your son's philosophy major, my husband has his Masters in Philosophy.

He's a stay at home dad, and I think he'd say that his degree got him to a great and happy place (at least most days)! :)

Should my son end up being a marvelous stay at home Dad I would be most proud. :)

Heavens, UCSB has quiet dorms and sub-free dorms. Perhaps you can persuade the school to move her into one of those dorms. Your kid sounds very sensible; if there is no satisfactory solution I suggest she transfer to a private school as suggested by other posters (maybe even an all girls school.) Its hard to avoid partying but it certainly is more common on certain campuses than others. Colleges do have entirely different cultures.
Best of luck.

Hi all. Said I would follow up and here it is. She is home now, enrolled in local JC for their new "winter" session, one class, five days a week, and for spring session. She got a job to work and earn some money so she can move to San Diego next fall and attend a JC in SD until she has earned her 60 units, and then she will transfer to San Diego State to become a certified high school teacher. This is "her" plan and she is very happy about it.

She is very happy to be out of "that" college. She just couldn't handle it for all of the reasons discussed above. The place, basically, just wasn't for her. And we couldn't get ourselves to "make" her stay.

She has a friend at Long Beach whose parents are making her stay and she is anorexic and very unhappy. She has friends that love college. She has friends that are bailing out and changing their plans also. It will be interesting to see in the coming months who goes back in the fall to their original school.

We have learned so much going through this. The most important lessons have been; listen to your children, do the best you can but be flexible, life will always throw you curves, changing the college is NOT the end of the world, or even better, not accomplishing their goals the way you had it all planned out is not the end of the world. So, we are OK with everything, and just so happy that we are moving forward and that she is happy too. That is about it. Good luck with your choices and remember to be flexible. Life is too short to waste it on someone else's dreams...IMO.

Thanks again for your help. You really helped me to see and learn many of these lessons. I hope our dilemma in some way might help you some day.

Happy trails to you and yours...

Hello Heavens, I am glad that your daughter and you two are happy with her choice. It is so hard and difficult for young people to make choices..I know as we just went through that with my grandson. He dropped out of college last March. He finally got a full time job..but a 12 hour a day one. That helped him make a decision.

He is going back to college after the first of the year. And right at this moment he is pursuing finding a job that will offer about 30 hours a week. He has several interviews so I am crossing my fingers one of them works out.

Best wishes to all of you. Your daughter is fortunate to have you two as her parents. And I am sure she is fully aware of that!

Glad you followed up and let us know! It's all good news.

Heavens, thanks for following up. I'm glad your daughter is feeling better about life!

Not to throw cold water on her plan, but SDSU is in many ways similar to UCSB. It has a reputation as a party school and it's very big. Do more of her friends go there?