Christie,

Thanks for your response.

The question of needing a car rental is a serious one for many people. Rentals and expenses are not cheap. And someone spending 3 days in Dallas may or may not need to spend the bucks.

That is to say, they may not feel that the Mesquite Rodeo is worth an extra $150.

I think that a rail system like the one we have in Dallas provides people something they would not have, for example, in Houston or Phoenix. It gives Dallas a real competitive advantage.

Dallas' rail should not be confused with bus service. Everywhere in America, people regard a city bus as about as appealing as steerage on the Titanic. Rail, however, is much more acceptable.

I have planned 3 day vacations for people using DART rail primarily, with a side trip to Fair Park as the only bus or taxicab expense. There are enough things to do in downtown, the surrounding neighborhoods, the transit villages, and in Ft Worth via the TRE commuter rail, to fill the 3 days fast.

X, I don't see your problem.

If downtown Fort Worth has more than downtown Dallas, then I ask More of What?

More hotel rooms?

More arenas?

More trolley cars?

More light rail?

More museums?

More department stores?

More night clubs and restaurants?

More statues?

Maybe Fort Worth people get their egos in overdrive sometimes and like to go off the edge of the earth? Most of the time, everybody else ignores them, like a brat in an airplane seat.

z - Ditto on that...
I moved to Fort Worth last year and grew up in Dallas. I have never heard such negativity toward Dallas. I mean Dallas is not Paris but many Fort Worth have this Big City Folk vs Us nice Fort Worth Counrty Folk. It really does get old. Funny though, growing up I loved going to Fort Worth and so did a lot of people that I know. Fort Worth has a chip on it's shoulder. But then again what do you expect from an early leader of Fort Worth, Amon Carter, refused to eat lunch in Dallas and would bring it in a paperbag. Meanwhile you have people like Eric Johnston former mayor of Dallas who helped to start Texas Instruments.

z,

You have completely missed the point on this one! The points you offered when trying to state that Dallas had more than Fort Worth in its downtown were not tourist destinations. That was my point, most of the things that you listed were not something an out-of-town tourist would want to see on a visit to Dallas. I have NEVER been to a city and made a point to visit their sports arena unless there was a specific event to see there. And even then the only reason I would want to see the sports arena would be for the event and not the arena. Yet, you still insist on saying the sports arenas are a tourist draw. Why?! So once again I will take your response and point out to you what you are missing in the overall argument.

More hotel rooms? Yes, downtown Dallas has more hotel rooms than Ft. Worth, but what does this matter? I have never heard of someone not being able to get a hotel room in downtown Ft. Worth. In fact, one of the major news stories this week was about a city funded hotel in downtown Ft Worth. The current hotel owners argued AGAINST such an action because current demand does not meet current supply. So once again I ask, why does this matter? Are you planning on touring a hotel room? I seriously doubt it!

More arenas? Ok, Dallas has two arenas to Ft. Worth's one, but see my above argument an arena in and of itself is not a tourist destination.

More trolley cars? This is something that Dallasites have really missed the boat on. Dallas is not the only city to have trolley cars, and really tourists are not interested in riding Dallas' trolley cars because Dallas is not famous for them. It is not like San Francisco (the only National Historic Moments on wheels) and many many other cities have revitalized their trolley cars, so Dallas has nothing unique here.

More light rail? Big deal. When arguing the merits of a downtown light rail is not important because Ft. Worth's downtown is much more pedestrian friendly and therefore a light rail would not be utilized. Who wants to spend $2 to ride this when they can walk to the destination. Not to mention that Dallas' light rail is not utilized to ride from West End to St. Paul street. People use it as a source of commuting options, and ride it from their suburban park n rides.

By the way I am not done yet, see the next post...

ok allow me to finish....

More museums? Dallas has put all their aces on the table with their downtown museams, because museams are few and far between the further you wander outside of downtown. Even though Fort Worth has many very nice private art galleries downtown I will not count those and instead reference the museams that Fort Worth has at its major museams complex (sorry the name of this area with the botanical gardens, Kimball, Natural history, etc escapes me right now). These museams are more numerous and of better quality than Dallas' offering and most downtown hotels in Fort Worth either have or will arrange shuttle service at no cost to these locations!

More department stores? Why does Dallas think its department stores are a reason that people would want to visit? The original posts stated "I'm not a big shopper" therefore this argument offers nothing. And aside from Neiman Mark-up what department stores are in Downtown? There are none! West End does not offer department stores, and the rest of downtown is devoted to vacant office buildings!

More night clubs and restaurants? I will give you this, Deep Ellum offers a lot in this arena. But then again, Dallas does have a population twice that of Fort Worth so this is to be expected.

More statues? Since when are Dallas stautes a tourist draw? The only statue I can really think of in downtown Dallas is that white spiral thing, what does this offer? Fort Worth architecture is far superior downtown Dallas (Bass Hall anyone), and this is after a tornado only two years ago! I would say this architecture alone makes up for any loss of statue count.

By the way, I am not a Fort Worth resident, I reside within Dallas city limits. However, I enjoy spending time in Downtown Fort Worth much more than Downtown Dallas even with the 40 minute drive.

<<More department stores? Why does Dallas think its department stores are a reason that people would want to visit? >>

Because it IS something that draws people to Dallas. As a former retail employee, let me assure you that people from as far away as Shreveport and Abilene come to the Dallas metro area to do their shopping. Having plenty of malls is indeed a good thing because those shoppers also spend money at restaurants and hotels, too.

I'll agree that Fort Worth is more fun and that it has better art mueums, too.

You're trying to prove that downtown Fort Worth has more of something than downtown Dallas does. My question is... what are you trying to prove it has more of?

We all know that downtown Fort Worth is a fun destination in its own right, you don't have to try to puff it up by claiming it's more of something else. Really.

If you can come up with some visitor sites for downtown Fort Worth, I'll be glad to support them.

To help you out, I'll say:

. the water gardens is an interesting place to visit for a while
. Billy Miner's Saloon is fun, because of the pictures of Butch Cassidy
. The murals on the outside building walls are quaint
. The red bricks on Main Street are picturesque
. At night, there are some fun restaurants and also some plays to see
. The Remington and Russell paintings are worth a look
. Bass Hall is a good place to watch a show

In all honesty, I wouldn't try to present Ft Worth as somehow "superior" to Dallas, in order to generate interest. That's not how you get people to appreciate your town.

Just as New Orleans doesn't try to promote itself as "better" than New York", or London doesn't need to outdo Paris...

Are you afraid that Fort Worth can only survive if Dallas somehow goes away?

<<More museums? Dallas has put all their aces on the table with their downtown museams, because museams are few and far between the further you wander outside of downtown>>

No, Dallas has many museums outside of its downtown. Art museums, historical museums, science museums, ethnic cultural centers... you name it.

Fair Park has about a dozen museums alone.

All in all, I'd say that Dallas has twice as many museums, of all kinds, than Fort Worth.

z,

A few points. First, Dallas has double the population of Ft Worth so of course it will have more of this and that, it should! I never said that Ft Worth had more of anything, except soul, which downtown Dallas lacks amidst the concrete and glass. I was simply trying to argue that based on department stores, sports arenas and trolley cars downtown Dallas is not that big a tourist draw. Definitely not worth forsaking Sundance Square for. It was you that said:

"JBX, downtown Fort Worth is definitely a worthwhile destination...
But...
It has much less than downtown Dallas." When you say "much less" what are you talking about exactly? Empty hotel rooms? Unused arenas? Trolley cars? These are not selling points to an out of town tourist, that is all I am trying to say! The real draws of Dallas are primarily located outside of the downtown area, in fact I tell out of town vistors to avoid the West End like the plague! The West End reminds me of Uncle Moe's from The Simpsons ("An alligator with sunglasses and a cowboy hat, now I have seen everything"). Their motto was put up a bunch of wacky decorations on chain resturants and watch the fanny packed tourists flock! I mean for crying out loud who wants to go eat at another Spaghetti Warehouse? Or see another Hooters? Of course there is the Planet Hollywood that could, but how unoriginal is that? And the West End market place, what is there? An arcade, a couple of antique stores, a place to buy hats, a place to buy purses, some kiosks on what exciting events Dallas has to offer, and the store that tries to sell true Texas stuff, which anyone can find at Terminal B at the airport on their way out of town. Please don't try and sell Ft Worth short based on the merits of downtown Dallas, stick with your strong points, which are primarily located outside of the immediate downtown area. me, I misspoke before and you are right about Fair Park and its collections. Living in North Dallas I always just group Fair Park in with downtown which is incorrect. JBX originally said shelderberry should spend an entire day in Ft Worth, NOT downtown Ft Worth! Given all that is in Ft Worth this is a great suggestion. But from your post, you suggest forgoing Ft Worth in favor of a cliche horse-drawn carriage down a street whose only claim to fame is the assasination of a president!

Second, at no point have I said that Ft Worth's downtown is "better" than Dallas' What I said was this:

"Fort Worth has more soul and gives a much more 'real' feel to it."

I feel that with space management and better urban planning Ft Worth has presented a much more pedestrian friendly destination, making a lot of their attractions easier to get to and more accesible to tourists. Throw in the Stockyards, the museams, the botanical gardens and an actual real "central park" area, and Ft Worth is worth a day! I would much rather direct my friends and family to spend a day in Ft Worth than waste a day in downtown Dallas.

But this is not to sell DALLAS short. With Fair Park, Greenville Avenue, and even the DMA (to name a very few) there is plenty to occupy people for a couple of days. But please don't forget that a visit to Ft Worht is well worth the time.

x, you seem to be settling down.

I agree that Fort Worth is worth a day. I think 2 days in Dallas and 1 day in Fort Worth is about right.

As to whether downtown Fort Worth has a "soul", no, it does not have a soul. Go to Sunday School and learn about what goes to Heaven and Hell.

You should not tell your visitors to stay away from the West End just because you personally don't like it.

My visiting relatives from Boston and Connecticut thought it was exciting and fun on a Saturday night.

Let other people make up their own minds as to what is worthwhile.

BTW, I'm sorry you want to dismiss the value of the McKinney Avenue Trolley. Many people think it is a wonderful experience for a visitor. I was on it last Sunday and it had a steady stream of tourists out to enjoy the ride.

Why do you say it has no visitor appeal?

The streetcars are old and quaint and the neighborhood is charming and pedestrian-oriented. I'd definitely recommend it to a visitor.

Last year, I visited a friend of mine in Belgium the night he showed his folks his home movies of Dallas. What did he show? The Trolley, his trip up Reunion Tower, the Asian Art Museum, the DMA museum...

Perhaps living in the suburbs does distort your idea of what visitors find interesting about Dallas.

Hello, Shelderberry,

In the past, I've put together 3 day schedules for visitors to the Dallas-Ft Worth Metroplex. I'd be happy to plan something for you.

But to do that, I need some facts. Are you coming on a weekend, or during the week? Are you staying in the suburbs, the center, downtown? Will you have a car?

Also, what do you like to do? You said shopping is not important, but does that mean none at all? Do you like museums or sporting events or what? Do you like to hang out in quiet sidewalk cafes sipping coffee, or work the room in noisy, boisterous nightclubs?

Do you like monuments? Museums?

Tell me something about your tastes and I'll be happy to suggest an itinerary.

Holy Crap! I NEVER expected so many responses. Thanks for all of your help . I really enjoyed all of the "difference" of opinions Also, thanks for the tips for Fort Worth. It's definitely in my plans!

You have to do Debbie. Don't leave Dallas without doing Debbie.