Artman,

Hmmmm ... what about the thoughtful 17-year-old who sees working at McDonald's and listening to Megadeath as his own "climatic battle" and a personal test of survival in a harsh environment?

But seriously, I think using an extreme doesn't really distill an argument. Sure it's sad.

Please don't misquote me, I never said the AT was a "cakewalk." Yes, "hiking the AP (sic)" is a great accomplishment and I applaud anyone who's done it.

But the point is that the accomplishment (laudable in its own right) is more endurance and commitment than technical skill, danger or adventure that one needs or encounters on many, many Alaska hikes.

A question like "Because it's warm?" indicated to me you have never hiked in wilderness Alaska.

And -- somehow I get the feeling you're going to tell me it doesn't matter -- CM didn't make a botanical mistake.

Yes, Sean Penn's movie said that. Yes, Krakauer cited one plant and when that was discredited, cited another. But another toxicology test has disproved his 2nd theory.

Great endings for books and movies. Just not the facts.

Repete,

Sorry I did misquote you. You did not say hiking the AP was a "cake walk". You said....

"And I've hiked on the AT ... which compared to many Alaska treks is a literal walk in the park"......

Wow those are two completely different analogies aren't they. How did I ever make that mistake?

Ok, let me try one last time at the point I have been trying to make about one simple line that you said in your first post which I take acception to and find an unfair depiction of this young mans character.
Your said and I quote ...."His path? This was mental illness.

Lets say for the sake of your pleasure he was foolish to go into the wilderness with what he took with him. Lets say he made a profoundly bad judgement and was ill prepared. Lets say to temper your disdain for him that he, because of his lack of preparedness that he starved to death before he could walk out that spring.
All of that doesn't make him mentally ill.

A link to an article by Jon Krakauer, author of Into the Wild, including a link to a radio interview.

http://tinyurl.com/2nh694

Errors in judgement occur everyday, anywhere. I still think of the family standed by snow in Oregon a year ago.

Summer life and winter are extremely different here, compared to other places, and there are stories every so often about newcomers in the hospital for hypothermia, frostbite, burns from fires in attempts to have a heated shelter, and so forth.

The term "senseless death" expresses how I feel about CM. I won't debate whether he was unprepared or a hero. I just hope anyone who knew his story and wants to have the experience, will live to tell and write about it.

Again artman, you bend my words: when you said I called the AT a "cakewalk" you turned it from a comparison to a declarative statement.

As someone who has spent a significant amount of time in both areas -- how about some of your personal experiences on the AT or in Alaska? -- I'll stand by my point that there are many, many hikes in AK that are more dangerous, require more self-sufficiency and technical expertise than the AT.

As for mental illness ... I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on Fodors. (And neither does the Alaska columnist Medred -- an award-winning author who himself has had his own wilderness, live-off-the-land experience. His link is above.)

Bottom line: We'll never know about CM. But the column and other information certainly raises that as a legitimate possibility.

And if a book or movie ignores a fact as central as the cause of death, what else is wrong? Does it mean the author/producer ("based on true events") framed it to romanticize their story line?

Perhaps there's the supreme irony: I wonder what CM would think of a powerful Hollywood force bending truth to tell his story.

Those are things we can argue about. But I do take offense that you say I have "disdain" for CM. Nowhere have I said that. I have pity and sorrow for a life cut short for whatever reason. I take no "pleasure" in this. I think much of his earlier life was tremendous and wonder where his path might have led.

Certainly he lived more in his 24 years than many do in a lifetime -- but that doesn't make his demise less tragic.

Here's the final question: You get a late-night phone call from a young son or daughter: "I'm heading deep into the wilderness.It's bear country. It might hit 60 below, I don't know where I'll stay. I've got 10 pounds of rice and a very small gun. I'm throwing away my maps."

So what do you say? Would Artman just say "Follow your dream"?
---
Another perspective, submitted without comment:

http://nmge.gmu.edu/textandcommunity...n_Response.pdf

repete,
thanks for another poignant essay.

artman,
I am sorry you take this so personally. Any who question the book, the story and the mental health of a young man who died needlessly in the wild are not doing it to attack this young man.

I read the book and preferred to not see the movie as that young upandcoming star would have won me over and glamourized what was a needless tragic, self imposed tragedy. Perhaps I will rent the video.

I think the poor sod was off his blocker. God rest his soul, but his entry into the wilderness was not of a sound mind.

Again, I am sorry you take this so personally and feel you need to defend the spirit of Christopher McCanless. I don't think a single poster on this thread does not speak lightly or wish him peace eternal. However he is not a roll model, a fallen hero. He was just a foolish misguided boy.

Peace

buttercup, I think the reaction to CM's story probably breaks down on lines of liberal/conservative, idealistic/pragmatic, with the former identifying with CM and the latter not understanding what made him tick at all. Ironically, it seems like his father would also fall into the latter group, at least at the time before Chris left. You see how maddening it is? Both sides feel like the other side doesn't "get" it. And we're not even family.

Of course the story is tragic. If someone wrote this as fiction, it would be too much. It's the total tragedy that makes the story so touching. But for all of the Alaskans and others who criticize him for the items he took, even with his meager possessions, he would have survived if he had simply understood how to cure the moose meat.

I also am perplexed at the critics feeling the need to come and hijack a thread that did NOT ask, "what did you think of Chris Mccandless?"

Sorry I'm so grouchy. I just saw the movie again today and it is amazing. Makes me impatient with the critics.

Repete,

Thanks for posting the Park Rangers point of view. I think it represents everything I am trying to rally against for CM sake.

You and the Park Ranger are basically saying this(tell me if i'm wrong)....'what he did was foolish,endangering,wasteful and showed signs of being done by a person who might have been mentally ill.'

Well you don't know what he did or didn't do or just how mentally prepared he was anymore than any of us do and yet you draw conclusion after conclusion and are critical of the book for doing then same thing?

You think the way you do because you don't like what he did because he didn't do your way. He didn't do it the way you think it should be done or the way the park ranger thinks it should be done. (Where would America be today if we had people that just wanted to do things the way everyone does?)

Thats fine. Thats fair. Thats your opinion based on your position. Thats still a long long way off from honestly being able to call someone mentally ill. Are you and this Park Ranger at all somehow qualified to be able to assess the mental health of someone who is dead based on what you read in a book? Why? Because he did a risky thing?

PS. I hope the Park Ranger is as concerned for every moose or bear that is wastefully killed by cars in the park every year. I wonder if he thinks the drivers of those cars are mentally ill?( Hey on second thought he maybe right!)

jetset, thanks for sharing the photos of your dad. He looks like a real character.

I'm sorry my dad didn't live to meet his grandkids--he died right before I got married.

Gosh, first I've been characterized as an envious guy who'd rather be playing Nintendo. Now I'm a pragmatic conservative, something that would completely shock anyone who knows me (or my voting record).

I wonder if FYB would consider this thread hijacked if it was nothing but swooning for CM and denying (as artman did) that this was a tragedy.

As for mental illness, I've already said no one will ever know. And we can't say for certain that had he cured the moose he would have survived. Even with food, he was woefully ill-prepared for other challenges such as cold and bears.

Its interesting to see artman dismiss the rangers' account and apparently question his integrity about his concern for car-killed moose.

This is tremendously enlightening about the depth of artman's understanding of the outdoors. First, Alaska park ranger (due to attractiveness of the posts) are the best-of-the-best, carrying naturalists. Second, very few (if any) moose or bears are killed in the park by cars, since cars are banned with only a very few exceptions and the road does not allow high speeds. Not even the most conservative/pragmatic/unfeeling/envious Nintendo-playing Alaskan would purposefully try to strike a moose with a car. It's a deadly proposition for moose and driver.

Two questions from earlier posts, which you won't answer ...

1) Why, artman, won't you post your Alaskan (or AT) experiences? How can you so easily dismiss the ranger or Medred -- both of whom are respected voices with decades personal of experiences? So enlightment us.

2) Why won't you reveal what you'd tell a son or daughter attempting such a trip? It's a legitimate question. Or how about you grumpy FYB?

The guy was a nutcase . . on a fools mission for "the climatic battle to kill the false being within.''

The real danger in stories that glorify his behavior is that some other borderline schizophrenic reads it and think it makes perfect sense . .

Artman: I'm curious just why you seem to have so much personally invested in defending and almost glamorizing (not the exact right word but close) . Do you have a connection to him, or to his family or the book/movie or ?? Is the story just too close too home?

I just can't understand your vehement stand . . . . .

repete, quick responses:

your initial post says he was mentally ill and I reacted to that. It seems that you now agree that we can't know from what we've been told. Didn't mean to offend you by assuming you were conservative, I welcome you to the enlightened world of liberal treehuggers. Every conservative person I've talked to has said Mccandless was stupid, or worse, and every liberal person admires his idealism. I was just trying to answer the poster's question as to why some like him and others hate him.

you cannot deny that the thread has been hijacked. If someone posts on snowmobiling in Yellowstone, and asks if someone has ever done it, and I post that I think it's stupid and ruining the planet and ruining Yellowstone for others, that's different than posting yes, i've done it and I agree, it's great, or I haven't done it but I've always wanted to.

He didn't die from cold or bears. He starved to death, and his body was found 2 weeks later. He made it 113 days, so I don't think we can assume that he would have died from cold in 2 weeks.

If you are asking about my experiences in Alaska and the Appalachian Trail (I didn't closely read all the emails between you and artman) I don't have experience in either. I'm from Texas. Frankly, I don't like to suffer and would NEVER do what he did. If one of my son's told me he wanted to do what Chris did, I would do everything possible to talk him out of it. It's hard to even imagine because we liberals are all touchy-feely and never hard on our kids. If they want to rebel, they do things like get jobs and become young republicans.

Follow,

My struggle with this story is that I can appreciate his idealism in theory but I'm struggling to understand the way an intelligent, thoughtful young man acted on it.

I was too strong with a simple declaration of mental illness. It was not my diagnosis to make. Nonetheless, he could well have been and I truly believe something -- for the severe lack of a better term -- snapped.

Were some of the components there? I'd like to think reasonable people can see things differently. The dueling doctors that judicial opponents line up against each other every day show just how blurred the line can be. Bottom line though: There might be strong opinions but we will never know.

His previous actions -- the donations, the wanderings -- all have the appeal of the classic soul searcher. But as someone with a fair amount of wilderness experience in AK and elsewhere, I thought that entering that country with what he did (and didn't) have was stacking the odds against his survival. I don't think the ranger was exaggerating when he said Chris was very lucky his moose kill (which regrettably was poaching and wasting of a grand animal) didn't bring in bears.

I've tried not to come off as disdainful and I'll admit ambivalence. My issue with the book and movie is that both try too hard to manipulate you toward the Krakauer/Penn position with a clear airing of other issues/perspective. That's their style and their right, but since I was in Alaska then and had access to other information and experiences, I see it through a different lens.
---
As for the other notes: Naw, I was asking artman about the Appalachian Trail.

Got a good laugh out of the young republican line. When my son was in 2nd grade he went through a contrary stage (first but not last) and would cheer for whatever team was playing my favorite. He also announced he wanted to invite GWB over for Thanksgiving ...

Repete,

Sorry I didn't answer your question about a son or daughter before...I thought it was too slanted and silly and you weren't being serious.
You asked....

"Here's the final question: You get a late-night phone call from a young son or daughter: "I'm heading deep into the wilderness.It's bear country. It might hit 60 below, I don't know where I'll stay. I've got 10 pounds of rice and a very small gun. I'm throwing away my maps."....

Maybe you could rephrase the question to be more realistic.

You and Medreds and the Park Rangers assumptions are nothing more than that. You taking out of context writings and concluding from those there there was something mentally ill about him. You are only focused on hi physical journey and don't seem interested in his adventure of the soul.
What my adventure history is, or yours is isn't important doesn't interest me at all here. Its not what I'm concerned with. I'm more interested in his heroic journey of the mind. Your don't seem to be. So be it.

Actually, artman, I think repete's hypothetical question is a good one. How would you respond to such a call?

Karens,
I disagree. I think its a completely unrealistically phrased question.

"I'm heading deep into the wilderness.It's bear country. It might hit 60 below, I don't know where I'll stay. I've got 10 pounds of rice and a very small gun. I'm throwing away my maps."

What kid is going to say that? Its silly.
I think a more realistic phrasing would be "Mom.Dad, I thought about this a long time. I'm heading up to Alaska to try to spend some time in the wilderness." At that point I guess a parents reaction would have to be support. I mean what else are you going to be able to do? Support them, remind them to be prepared and to get behind there dream. You going to yell at them and tell them no? Their an adult.

repete, you made me spit out my coffee. What an awkward Thanksgiving prayer that would be...

Here's an interesting note: I just watched a documentary called Call of the Wild that dispels one of the Mccandless myths. Apparently, it is assumed that Chris cut up his id, burned his SS card, etc. because nothing was found with the body. Turns out, there was another backpack on the bus that was overlooked. An alaskan guide picked it up months later, thinking it was empty. In a hidden pocket, he found a wallet with $300, and more id than I currently possess, including a birth certificate and SS card.

Well, as someone, who has a brother who has lived in Alaska for ten years (not in the city) and has visited, if he was not mentally ill than he had no common sense. NONE.

You don't take off in the Alaskan bush without reading a hell of a lot of books, articles and taking advice from those who have lived there at anytime of year.

Sorry, but the reaction from my brother and his Alaskan friends think (although sadly) than CM and Timothy Treadwell were idiots.

I fell very sorry for his family.

Artman, as parents we felt a strong responsibility to teach our son life skills that would help give him the ability to follow his dream. It seems to me that you don't appreciate the importance of physical preparations that, to me, give a young person greater opportunities and freedom. When I read the link about the last person to see CM alive, I was disheartened that CM refused the offer of a pair of boots. What kind of respect did he have for a person who might have known better than he about the rigors he would face?
Back to tzarinna's original request, there's another book I'd like to recommend. Running North about one family's journey to Alaska to run their dogs in the Yukon Quest. They made mistakes. They learned from them. They were very well educated people but they also realized that they needed to learn from people who were more experienced than they. They took risks but they also did their best to improve the odds that they would do ok.

dfnh,

Since CM died in his Alaskan adventure I think its easy to jump on the band wagon and say he didn't have any common sense. But does that really do him justice? If he had walked out of their in the spring no one would probably even know his name. Now because he died and his life story is interesting enough to have had a book written about it and a movie from that book he becomes this huge target of criticism. And I use the words 'life story' because you really can be critical of any one part of his life is you don't take the time to read the book about the rest of his life. His trouble with his father led him to live a life void of the kind of parent advice you suggest. This can be looked at as sad but it also led him to bravely desire to seek out the truth in people and situations. He defied being denied. Ok one can look at his life as being selfish. Who did he think he was that he could just go down that river after being told he needed a permit? Who did he think he was thinking he didn't need those boots? We theres truth in that but there also is something to be admired in that kind of will to live a free life. Wasn't that what this country was built on?
Because the fact is he strove to be noble. He wasn't being selfish to take something from you, or to push someone out of their path. He did what he did to learn to be true. You have to admire that a bit in a person. We see far to little of that today.