Christopher McCandless' Pilgrimage
Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:11 AM
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Jetset,
Your dad's story could have ended by him cutting his femoral artery with an ax and bleed to death before he got help. CM story could have ended that he walked out of the bush that spring. What did happen doesn't make CM any less sane as your dad. In fact they seem quite similar in spirit for adventure. CM "could have" been more prepared. He "could have"been eaten by a bear. He 'could have' stayed home. He didn't. But man what a life he led while we was alive. Thats more than most of us do. His vision of a searching ,full life should be a role model to the rest of us. Just like your dad.
Repete,
Whether CM was as prepared for the Alaskan bush as much as he could have been doesn't make him mentally ill. People die everyday because they make a left turn in front of on coming traffic. Are they mentally ill?
Your dad's story could have ended by him cutting his femoral artery with an ax and bleed to death before he got help. CM story could have ended that he walked out of the bush that spring. What did happen doesn't make CM any less sane as your dad. In fact they seem quite similar in spirit for adventure. CM "could have" been more prepared. He "could have"been eaten by a bear. He 'could have' stayed home. He didn't. But man what a life he led while we was alive. Thats more than most of us do. His vision of a searching ,full life should be a role model to the rest of us. Just like your dad.
Repete,
Whether CM was as prepared for the Alaskan bush as much as he could have been doesn't make him mentally ill. People die everyday because they make a left turn in front of on coming traffic. Are they mentally ill?
Jan 2nd, 2008, 07:05 AM
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Artman,
So you're conceding your point that McC was "not ill-prepared"?
It shows how little you know about this story.
As for a traffic argument, that's a intellectually disingenuous analogy. McCandless was purposefully unprepared. There's a huge difference between what McC did and a traffic accident.
So you're conceding your point that McC was "not ill-prepared"?
It shows how little you know about this story.
As for a traffic argument, that's a intellectually disingenuous analogy. McCandless was purposefully unprepared. There's a huge difference between what McC did and a traffic accident.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 08:12 AM
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repete,
What I thought we were trying to have here is a discussion about the course of a person life via adventure, the search for the truth etc.
There is no cause for you to get snippy. I assume I have read the book and seen the movie s much as you have. You use the words "purposely unprepared" to suggest that he was some kind of a nut. Are you saying that he went to Alaska to kill himself? Well thats just an assumption on your part that isn't based on any facts. It does this brave soul injustice and its just not fair.
I would be interested in your opinion, in the fairest words you can mustard, what were his intentions on going there?
Sure he was ill prepared to live in the Alaskan back country if ones intentions was to simply protect ones physical well being as much as one can. From his writings and his history that doesn't really seem to have been his intentions at all. How is what CM intended to do any different than what a mountain climbers does?
What I thought we were trying to have here is a discussion about the course of a person life via adventure, the search for the truth etc.
There is no cause for you to get snippy. I assume I have read the book and seen the movie s much as you have. You use the words "purposely unprepared" to suggest that he was some kind of a nut. Are you saying that he went to Alaska to kill himself? Well thats just an assumption on your part that isn't based on any facts. It does this brave soul injustice and its just not fair.
I would be interested in your opinion, in the fairest words you can mustard, what were his intentions on going there?
Sure he was ill prepared to live in the Alaskan back country if ones intentions was to simply protect ones physical well being as much as one can. From his writings and his history that doesn't really seem to have been his intentions at all. How is what CM intended to do any different than what a mountain climbers does?
Jan 2nd, 2008, 08:58 AM
#28
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From the article . . .
"No rational individual can overlook the note he left explaining what he was seeking. He went into the wilderness, in his own words, to stage "the climatic battle to kill the false being within.''"
"No rational individual can overlook the note he left explaining what he was seeking. He went into the wilderness, in his own words, to stage "the climatic battle to kill the false being within.''"
Jan 2nd, 2008, 09:02 AM
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Our son read this book several years ago but, until now, I have not wanted to read it. Our son has a fair amount of wilderness experience and my husband knows how to use an axe. I'd like to point out that someone with a lot of prior axe experience has a lot less chance of cutting his femoral artery than an inexperienced person. I don't think you can compare Jet's father with CM. My son was a volunteer trailmaster with an outdoor club and helped the club start enforcing safety rules. There is always a risk in life but the probability of an accident is greatly decreased with proper training and experience. This doesn't necessarily make it any less of an adventure, in fact, sometimes more because you can go farther/last longer with good prep and training. One of my favorite photos is one he took of a friend taking a GPS reading on top of a small mountain in the middle of a vast mountain range. Only 2 of them had the stamina to continue the steep hike to the top.
One of my favorite books about adventure in Alaska is Tisha, the story of a young school teacher who went to teach in a remote town back in the 1920s. Joe Reddington's biography is a good read about homesteading there when there wasn't a lot of comforts available. The reason I am reluctant to read Into the Wild is because CM took more risk than was necessary. He increased the probability of failure. Some people are better at improvising and figuring out solutions to problems. There's a film about a man who homesteaded in AK and lived by himself most of the time. It's show fairly often educational tv. He took in only what he could carry on his back. The film shows him building a cabin, fashioning tools, etc. So, yes, there is at least one story of someone who decided to live in the wilderness who lived a very long life.
One of my favorite books about adventure in Alaska is Tisha, the story of a young school teacher who went to teach in a remote town back in the 1920s. Joe Reddington's biography is a good read about homesteading there when there wasn't a lot of comforts available. The reason I am reluctant to read Into the Wild is because CM took more risk than was necessary. He increased the probability of failure. Some people are better at improvising and figuring out solutions to problems. There's a film about a man who homesteaded in AK and lived by himself most of the time. It's show fairly often educational tv. He took in only what he could carry on his back. The film shows him building a cabin, fashioning tools, etc. So, yes, there is at least one story of someone who decided to live in the wilderness who lived a very long life.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 09:15 AM
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Artman,
I take it you're not a climber.
A mountain climber studies and prepares. He/she attempts to bring adequate equipment for task.There's no parallel.
My kindest words? I think this was a deeply troubled soul with a terribly skewed respect for nature.
It was a story well told, but my introduction to this tragedy came long before Jon Krakauer or Sean Penn knew of the case. I don't know why CM went to Alaska, but I know the state gets plenty of lost souls known as "end of the roaders."
And now living far away from Alaska, I see how the state is shrouded in myth.
CM's quote about "the climatic battle to kill the false being within'' is telling.
Going into the wilderness with that lack of preparation, that lack of gear, that lack of respect for nature is not a rational act.
A death wish? I don't know. But if an acquaintance of mine was going to do that, I'd ask him if he had one.
dfnh,
Agree. There are plenty of stories of true heroes.
And there are plenty of ways to live a full life without dying. And accelerating your death does not make the story more romantic.
I take it you're not a climber.
A mountain climber studies and prepares. He/she attempts to bring adequate equipment for task.There's no parallel.
My kindest words? I think this was a deeply troubled soul with a terribly skewed respect for nature.
It was a story well told, but my introduction to this tragedy came long before Jon Krakauer or Sean Penn knew of the case. I don't know why CM went to Alaska, but I know the state gets plenty of lost souls known as "end of the roaders."
And now living far away from Alaska, I see how the state is shrouded in myth.
CM's quote about "the climatic battle to kill the false being within'' is telling.
Going into the wilderness with that lack of preparation, that lack of gear, that lack of respect for nature is not a rational act.
A death wish? I don't know. But if an acquaintance of mine was going to do that, I'd ask him if he had one.
dfnh,
Agree. There are plenty of stories of true heroes.
And there are plenty of ways to live a full life without dying. And accelerating your death does not make the story more romantic.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 09:48 AM
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Repete,
Is it rational to hang from a cliff face 2000 feet above the floor below on a bolt wedged into a rock? ( Ever see the of flint and broke rock shards at the base of these climbing faces..where do you think they came from?)
Was what CM did rational? Is that your issue with his story? I guess it depends on your definition of rational?
His attempt at a new type of rationality that would" kill the false being within'' makes total sense to me. Anyone who strives to be adventurous, go deep into nature, hike the Appalachian trail, climb a mountain would understand what he was trying to do.
You keep posting, over and over saying things as if he wanted to die. You seem to think he was trying to be a hero. I don't think the book or the movie suggested that. In fact just the opposite.
He made a mistake. So do the hundreds of people killed every year mountain climbing,river rafting,backpacking,sailing,canoeing etc.
Here is my thought on your view. Its just s guess but I think its could be rather correct. People who don't care about this story just say" Stupid kid". They just as soon be playing Nintendo. But people, like yourself who are trouble by his adventure, who see his story as sadly tragic, almost criminally so I think are move on the level of envious of him. I am. I certainly would want to die the way he did. I don't think he did. But I sure would have wanted to experience the sublime as he did. And I think deep inside you do to.
Is it rational to hang from a cliff face 2000 feet above the floor below on a bolt wedged into a rock? ( Ever see the of flint and broke rock shards at the base of these climbing faces..where do you think they came from?)
Was what CM did rational? Is that your issue with his story? I guess it depends on your definition of rational?
His attempt at a new type of rationality that would" kill the false being within'' makes total sense to me. Anyone who strives to be adventurous, go deep into nature, hike the Appalachian trail, climb a mountain would understand what he was trying to do.
You keep posting, over and over saying things as if he wanted to die. You seem to think he was trying to be a hero. I don't think the book or the movie suggested that. In fact just the opposite.
He made a mistake. So do the hundreds of people killed every year mountain climbing,river rafting,backpacking,sailing,canoeing etc.
Here is my thought on your view. Its just s guess but I think its could be rather correct. People who don't care about this story just say" Stupid kid". They just as soon be playing Nintendo. But people, like yourself who are trouble by his adventure, who see his story as sadly tragic, almost criminally so I think are move on the level of envious of him. I am. I certainly would want to die the way he did. I don't think he did. But I sure would have wanted to experience the sublime as he did. And I think deep inside you do to.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:20 AM
#32
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Is it rational to hang from a cliff face 2000 feet above the floor below on a bolt wedged into a rock?
Sure, if you take adequate precautions and know the risks. CM did neither.
---
As for the the rest of the post ... wow, where do I send the bill?
Let's see . . . I've outfitted and guided trips around the Arctic Circle. I've skied and winter camped on some of the world's greatest mountains. I've had a grizzly's nose in the zipper of my tent (while a tent mate snored). I've slept in the wilderness under the stars (tentless) on four continents. I've run a Zodiac in the Gulf of Alaska, I've made a U-turn on K Street ...
And I've hiked on the AT ... which compared to many Alaska treks is a literal walk in the park.
I don't see this kid trying to be a hero. I think people who see this kid as a hero are wrong.
I'm all for embracing life and living it to the fullest. But you can do it without without stacking the odds against your survival.
The tragedy here is a young life lost needlessly in the mid-20s. Unlike most climbers, he was indeed an accident waiting to happen. Sublime? Perhaps, but many trails were left unhiked, many streams were left unforded in a life ended so young.
And I've never played Nintendo ...
Sure, if you take adequate precautions and know the risks. CM did neither.
---
As for the the rest of the post ... wow, where do I send the bill?
Let's see . . . I've outfitted and guided trips around the Arctic Circle. I've skied and winter camped on some of the world's greatest mountains. I've had a grizzly's nose in the zipper of my tent (while a tent mate snored). I've slept in the wilderness under the stars (tentless) on four continents. I've run a Zodiac in the Gulf of Alaska, I've made a U-turn on K Street ...
And I've hiked on the AT ... which compared to many Alaska treks is a literal walk in the park.
I don't see this kid trying to be a hero. I think people who see this kid as a hero are wrong.
I'm all for embracing life and living it to the fullest. But you can do it without without stacking the odds against your survival.
The tragedy here is a young life lost needlessly in the mid-20s. Unlike most climbers, he was indeed an accident waiting to happen. Sublime? Perhaps, but many trails were left unhiked, many streams were left unforded in a life ended so young.
And I've never played Nintendo ...
Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:31 AM
#33
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I'd rather die in my sleep personally. After a good long life. Not in an unheated bus.
The first few years of my life were rural and sort of an adventure.. then I lived somewhere more isolated, with tsunami threats, 100 mph winds, Asian typhoon remnants, bears, isolation.. it was for money, but not a whole lotta bliss.
The people I tend to envy are ones who go on journeys later in life, and find peace away from the hectic 9-5 pace and predictability of many years.
I was lucky to see both sides through my parents. One lived exactly the way he wanted, the other fulfilled a lifetime dream of traveling the world independently.
CM will be remembered after the book and movie brought him to our attention. Maybe that is what he knew all along. His time here would mean something.
The first few years of my life were rural and sort of an adventure.. then I lived somewhere more isolated, with tsunami threats, 100 mph winds, Asian typhoon remnants, bears, isolation.. it was for money, but not a whole lotta bliss.
The people I tend to envy are ones who go on journeys later in life, and find peace away from the hectic 9-5 pace and predictability of many years.
I was lucky to see both sides through my parents. One lived exactly the way he wanted, the other fulfilled a lifetime dream of traveling the world independently.
CM will be remembered after the book and movie brought him to our attention. Maybe that is what he knew all along. His time here would mean something.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:24 PM
#34
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I posted this before - but interested in your responses.
What is it, do you think, about people like CM who need so much time alone away from people.
I love to hike and be outside without peoople around, but I could never tolerate as much solitude as CM wanted in his life. I can't imagine him choosing to live this way, at such a young age.
I don't think the answer is mental illness, but I don't know what it is.
So, to answer the OP, no, I could never follow in his path. I'd go crazy without people for so long and I prefer a different diet that would be necessary. Plus, I like daily showers.
What is it, do you think, about people like CM who need so much time alone away from people.
I love to hike and be outside without peoople around, but I could never tolerate as much solitude as CM wanted in his life. I can't imagine him choosing to live this way, at such a young age.
I don't think the answer is mental illness, but I don't know what it is.
So, to answer the OP, no, I could never follow in his path. I'd go crazy without people for so long and I prefer a different diet that would be necessary. Plus, I like daily showers.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:47 PM
#35
Artman: "He made a mistake" A mistake??
A mistake is putting a blue sweater in w/ the white washing. A mistake is flirting w/ the bosses wife. A mistake is taking a wrong exit on the freeway. What CM did is hardly a "mistake". It was a unbelievable error in judgement and very likely a desire to die.
A mistake is putting a blue sweater in w/ the white washing. A mistake is flirting w/ the bosses wife. A mistake is taking a wrong exit on the freeway. What CM did is hardly a "mistake". It was a unbelievable error in judgement and very likely a desire to die.
Jan 2nd, 2008, 03:54 PM
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CM was a kid from the suburbs with no survival skills. Maybe my dad's advantage was growing up in the outdoors, and having more maturity.
Plus, he had survived a war!
I have a journal my dad kept while he built his cabin. It was valuable in understanding what he went through in the time he improved his property, coped with the weather, and experienced loneliness at times.
He wanted to come to Alaska to find something different. His mother had sold the family homestead, so maybe not having a home to return to was also part of it.
Anyway, the first time I brought my oldest son out to see where I spent my first five years was very meaningful.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...dandJordan.jpg
Plus, he had survived a war!
I have a journal my dad kept while he built his cabin. It was valuable in understanding what he went through in the time he improved his property, coped with the weather, and experienced loneliness at times.
He wanted to come to Alaska to find something different. His mother had sold the family homestead, so maybe not having a home to return to was also part of it.
Anyway, the first time I brought my oldest son out to see where I spent my first five years was very meaningful.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...dandJordan.jpg
Jan 2nd, 2008, 09:53 PM
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I have read the book and seen the movie. This story is a parent's worse nightmare. Selfish, foolish, vengeful?, and ultimately regrettable behavior with the ultimate price paid. Very sad.
In response to the original question, I am sure there are more than a few people working at your local burger shack or mowing your lawn that have had similar journeys and survived where others failed. Some of us no doubt have forbears who survived such journeys. The difference may be one of motive and following the old scout rule to "be prepared".
In response to the original question, I am sure there are more than a few people working at your local burger shack or mowing your lawn that have had similar journeys and survived where others failed. Some of us no doubt have forbears who survived such journeys. The difference may be one of motive and following the old scout rule to "be prepared".
Jan 3rd, 2008, 03:01 AM
#39
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RePete,
I have to keep coming back to the question of why you see this young man's life as being so sad.
Sad to me is a 17yo working at Mcdonalds, no education living to crusie the streets with his friends listening to Megadeath.This country is filled with that sad story.
CM story is another path taken. He saw the falseness in his parents lives, his father job, his friends menial actions and took a stand to look for another path. In that sense he is a hero. I think your too wrapped up in the physical aspect of his search.
(sidebar:The AT a "cakewalk"? Why because its warm? "Hiking on the AP" is mush different than hiking the AP wouldn't you agree?)
You see CM going into your wilderness as being unprepared. But thats just looking at his physical preparations. People have survived much worse conditions with less. Rare ,yes, but they have. People use to live their whole lives with what CM carried on his back. You fail to appreciate his mental and emotional preparedness and see it as a thing of beauty.How many people could deal with that kind of solitude let alone learn from it? The late great Joseph Campbell said that what we are all looking for in life is not the MEANING of life but the EXPERIENCE of being alive. To live that experience.
And lets not forget an important fact. Had he not made the botanical mistake of eating the wrong plant he more than likely would have walked out of there once the waters subsided. What he had,what he prepared in taking with him allowed him to survive. He even had a book on plants of the area. He just made a very fatal mistake.
Note to Jetset,
I don't think it is a fair characterization to say he had no survival skills. In fact I think he had many more survival skills than the average person. He traveled the country,live in a tent, got jobs when he needed it, could live on the side of the road if need be. How many people could find a sense of freedom by burning what money they had on them and still finding ones way down the road. Thats survival.
I have to keep coming back to the question of why you see this young man's life as being so sad.
Sad to me is a 17yo working at Mcdonalds, no education living to crusie the streets with his friends listening to Megadeath.This country is filled with that sad story.
CM story is another path taken. He saw the falseness in his parents lives, his father job, his friends menial actions and took a stand to look for another path. In that sense he is a hero. I think your too wrapped up in the physical aspect of his search.
(sidebar:The AT a "cakewalk"? Why because its warm? "Hiking on the AP" is mush different than hiking the AP wouldn't you agree?)
You see CM going into your wilderness as being unprepared. But thats just looking at his physical preparations. People have survived much worse conditions with less. Rare ,yes, but they have. People use to live their whole lives with what CM carried on his back. You fail to appreciate his mental and emotional preparedness and see it as a thing of beauty.How many people could deal with that kind of solitude let alone learn from it? The late great Joseph Campbell said that what we are all looking for in life is not the MEANING of life but the EXPERIENCE of being alive. To live that experience.
And lets not forget an important fact. Had he not made the botanical mistake of eating the wrong plant he more than likely would have walked out of there once the waters subsided. What he had,what he prepared in taking with him allowed him to survive. He even had a book on plants of the area. He just made a very fatal mistake.
Note to Jetset,
I don't think it is a fair characterization to say he had no survival skills. In fact I think he had many more survival skills than the average person. He traveled the country,live in a tent, got jobs when he needed it, could live on the side of the road if need be. How many people could find a sense of freedom by burning what money they had on them and still finding ones way down the road. Thats survival.
Jan 3rd, 2008, 06:02 AM
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I'm fascinated by CM's story, not because of the story itself, but because of the reactions to it that different people have.
Some think he was a hero, others crazy. What I find interesting is that I've talked to several people about this, and it's hard to predict how they'll feel about him. At first, I thought younger people may be more likely to see him as a hero, but that's not always true.
Many parents of grown children I've talked to seem to think the story is more sad than anything, which is what I think. He never seemed to find what he was looking for.
Some think he was a hero, others crazy. What I find interesting is that I've talked to several people about this, and it's hard to predict how they'll feel about him. At first, I thought younger people may be more likely to see him as a hero, but that's not always true.
Many parents of grown children I've talked to seem to think the story is more sad than anything, which is what I think. He never seemed to find what he was looking for.
