Rhea

Patrick, I'm sure we're all dying to know if the signs are permanently gone...And it would be even nicer to know that the power of the printed word changed policy.
Come on --- be a sport; you've got us into it -- send someone in at 7:30 to walk thru to see if the tables are sign-less.

amelia

Patrick: I know your posts on the Europe board--you are one of those persons who always looks at an issue from several points of view, and you believe in tipping!

I would think that the waitstaff must be very grateful to your stance on this issue. If the kitchen is slow that night, they can't go back there and cook your meal, but they're stuck with the policy written on the darn table.

And you are so right, as are so many other posters, about the real issue's being the sign. Most of us understand seatings, can handle a warning about early seating/time on the phone. But a sign on the table is the same as sending you to the principal's office to await some sort of punishment.

Bad, bad business decision.

We had a very awkward situation handled beautifully by a good restaurant here. They used to have a sort of living room area where, if all tables were reserved, one could not only order drinks but also order food. We loved it. We would meet other couples there and just lounge the night away.

One night we had spent about two hours there two other couples(and had spent around $500 among the six of us). The manager said, "I'm in a bind. Could you help me out. A group of people reserved this area--we thought it would be Ok this late--and they've been waiting at the bar for a half hour. They are not happy right now. Could I talk you into taking their seats at the bar and having coffee/dessert on us? I'd really appreciate it."

No problem. We not only happily ate dessert at the bar, but we also stayed another hour after buying an after-dinner drink.

You can bet we go back there frequently. The restaurant didn't punish the dinner--they just got rid of that area!

Scarlett

Patrick,
maybe it all doesn't matter any more, they will be having to wrap all the tables in plastic and duct tape soon!

Sue_xx_yy

For Marx Brothers fans, this thread inspires me to co-opt dear Groucho's song, and with a few minor modifications suggest to the restaurant owner that he have his staff sing it to every patron:
"Hello, you must be going / We know you'd like to stay/ for a cocktail or cafe/or even a meal, say/ so hello...you must be going!" : - )

fanta

I read with interest your comments about the dining time limit. As an owner of an upscale Italian restaurant that has been in my family for three generations, may I offer a restaurant owner's perspective. In Connecticut, dining Sunday through even Friday is rarely consistent...sometimes quite busy, sometimes very quiet. We have no time limits on those nights. But Saturday...well, everyone wants to go out on Saturday night, and they want to go out at 7 p.m. We want to stay in business and make many diners happy for many years to come. But, if we are to continue to pay expensive labor costs, sky high taxes, health care, insurance, goods and supplies, advertising, etc., etc., we MUST have two seatings on a table on Saturday night. We understand you are paying a lot of money, we understand you are having a good time...then come to the later seating, and stay all night. But if you plan to camp out for the night, please come on Tuesday. We have to be able to count on the 150 people we serve on Saturday night, we will not stay in business to serve you just serving 75 people on our busiest night. We do not have little table top postings, but we do say to our early tables, particularly large tables, that we do plan on a two hour seating, will that be a problem? If so, I suggest they come at 8 p.m. and stay as long as they'd like. One of our pet peeves is when a guest books a reservation at one time, several people show up at that time, then the rest of the table comes a half an hour later. We have accepted other reservations for the evening, and guests who are this inconsiderate and do not honor their own reservation time get our night off to a bad start. We know we will have the next table showing up and no where to put them. Laura

Patrick

One thing you have not mentioned, fanta, is the length of time your restaurant normally takes to serve a meal. As I mentioned above, our night there was typical. We were seated, we ordered drinks at the waitresses first appearance, and we ordered as soon as you returned to take our order. But then it was over two hours before we had been served our meal and could finish eating it. We ordered coffee (didn't do refills even when offered) and had dessert WITH the coffee. The total time of the meal was 2 and a half hours. So why would they suggest that we should only be able to stay for an hour and three-quarters. Are they discouraging ordering drinks and desserts? Because it would appear that is the only way you could have a meal there and meet their time restraints. I suspect your restaurant is normally able to serve a complete meal in less time than that.

djkbooks

Laura: You raise some interesting points.

However, your various business concerns (cost of labor, health insurance, etc.) are irrelevant to your customers, who are visiting your establishment for a fine dining experience well worth the tariff. If that doesn't happen, they won't return.

On the other hand, experienced restaurant owners know how to handle "inconsiderate guests". Most restaurants, for example, will not seat a party until all of them have arrived. And, they do not hold tables beyond 15-20 minutes for late-comers. And, they communicate all this when the reservation is made. Anyone who finds this unreasonable is being just that - unreasonable, especially on a Saturday night. And, why would any restaurant accomodate "inconsiderate guests" at the inconvenience of those who are considerate?

But, you say that everyone wants to reserve at 7PM and that you encourgage them to book at 8PM if they want to stay as long as they like, yet you indicate that you plan on a two-hour turnover, and hope for one turn per table on a Saturday night? That simply doesn't add up...

Surely as an experienced restaurant "owner", you know that most people are flexible. And, that, if you suggest 6:30PM or 6:00PM (versus, for example, 8:30 PM when they phone for a reservation) they'll be fine with that time. Even though, in the minds of most, "7PM" is the most common time that comes to mind when folks phone to reserve, unless they have plans before or after dinner, they are amenable to 6:30 or even 6:00. Everyone knows that when all the tables in a restaurant are seated at the same time, it's nearly impossible for the wait staff and kitchen to service everyone properly.

And, assuming your staff and kitchen are efficient, many, if not most, parties are "done and out" in about an hour.

Most restauraunts open earlier and stay open later on Saturday night in order to turn the tables two or more times. Then, they stagger their reservations accordingly.

In my opinion, it would behoove you to have a conversation with your patrons when they phone to reserve.

To suggest that they "please come on Tuesday" if they want to "camp out" is not what any patron has in mind.

Surely your experience indicates that "large parties" are typically a special concern. Often, they are travelling from various distances to meet up with one another, it may be a special occasion, and (to the disdain of your regular patrons) they are often quite loud and obnoxious, not to mention demanding of your staff (seperate checks?). So, if "everyone" wants to "go out at 7PM", why not ask "how many" first, then suggest a reservation time?


All in all, there are any number of ways to manage reservations on a Saturday night, and to maximize your "turnover" without your patrons realizing that you are manipulating the times so as to service everyone as best as possible.

fanta

It's fanta again, just home from a Saturday night. Perhaps I wasn't clear. We don't take 7 p.m. reservations, we do stagger our reservation times...we do "manipulate" our reservations so customers don't realize we are manipulating them and of course we don't suggest they come on a Tuesday. We do plan on two hour turns, first seatings between 5:30 and 6:30 and second seatings between 7:45 and 8:30 and it usually all works out....We have our guests well fed from cocktails and appetizers to dessert in two hours....which is actually usually enough time for most tables. I was just trying to introduce another perspective. WE are a small restaurant and don't have a waiting area for customers so if most of the party has arrived we do seat them, even if a few people in the party are missing. And, after you've booked an early party of eight at 6 p.m. and most of the party has showed up by 6:30 p.m. are you really going to turn away the whole party because you are want the table to be open for the 8:30 p.m. turn? Fanta

joesorce

Fanta, please don't waste your time. Their minds are made up. There is no middle ground. "Restaurant Terror" must come to an end! Patrick had a pleasant 2 1/2 hour meal that was simply RUINED by that nasty little cardboard note!!! They have gone too far!!!!

Vacationer

Patrick: Although it is probably too late, you should have included your name on the letter to the business owner. Truth is a complete defense to defamation/slander. The owner would not have sued you and even if he had, he'd lose his shirt in court.

Patrick

I think it is a bigger issue than a potential lawsuit, which really isn't, as you say, an issue.

This is a small town. I may later want to go back to this restuarant if they drop the silly sign thing. Or I may want to go to one of their other restaurants, or one of the very good ones practically next door. I don't need my name bantered about the local restaurant owners as a "troublemaker".
Frankly since the owner knows it is a "truth", it really doesn't make any difference, as far as I'm concerned, what the name of a particular patron is who didn't like it. It's now clear to him how a nameless patron feels. My own name adds no particular weight to the issue.

And by the way, since some time has gone by on this, I understand the entire situation of the "signs" at Stoney's has become well known among the restaurants in town. The general feeling is that recently they have been putting the signs on the tables on the nights when they expect a big crowd or are overbooked on reservations -- pretty common this time of year. But apparently they are removing them for those who have booked for a time that would not require a "turn-over" of the table.

soccr

I think it's important to make a distinction between seatings and time limits -- it's not the same thing and it certainly doesn't feel the same to the clientele.

I have no problem with a pre-announced policy of two seatings. It's clear to everyone what is expected, and it's up to the restaurant to make sure that the time allotment for the first seating is adequate and service is efficient enough to get everyone out before people arrive for the second seating. If someone lingers a little too long, it's perfectly acceptable for the host/hostess to ask that the table be freed for the second seating, because it was known ahead of time that there would be a second seating at a very specific time.

Time limits not attached to formal seatings are really something that only the restaurant personnel should be held to, not the clientele. It's up to the restaurant to know that the average time for service and comsumption of a meal is, say 2 hrs., more for larger parties, less for singles. And it's up to the restaurant to keep the service moving fast enough to keep up. And it's up to the restaurant to roll with the unexpected -- that's part of the reason for staggered reservations: to allow some flexibility as well as to pace the kitchen.

In any case, eating at one's own leisure and pace and enjoying the food and company should never be treated as misbehavior. It's why you're there.

Dreamer2

That is quite a story, Patrick, and has created a good thread. I have been on both sides of that coin myself, as many others have also contributed.
One New Year's Eve we had a second seating reservation for 6 people for 10m. The folks from the earlier seating never left the table until after 11m! We didn't even have our entree until after midnight.
And one summer evening we were enjoying a second cup of coffee with another couple at fine restaurant on the coast, and were asked to vacate the table, and would we like to continue our conversation at the bar?!
In both cases we were at upscale, expensive establishments, and in both cases we were remotely acquainted with the owners! In neither case were we offered so much as a coke for our inconvenience.
The only thing I can say is we have never returned to either restaurant. And evidently the problem is more prevalent that we had realized! And although I recognize it as a sticky situation, I'm not sure what the answer is. Perhaps a card of sign could be used as a subtle way to encourage people to be polite. I think putting a time limit is way over the line, but maybe just a note to call for common sense in these high volume places is a good idea. Of course, the best solution is for our fine restaurants to adopt the European practice of reserving the table for the night!

Patrick

Both good comments about two seatings, and yes, I'm quite familiar with restaurants that do that -- sometimes not two blanket times, but staggered so each table has two seatings at various times -- which still allows the restaurant to make an adjustment should one table be vacated earlier than expected and another later for some reason.

But regarding that New Year's Eve situation -- I can't imagine a restaurant owner not smart enough to figure out that early diners on New Year's Eve are definitely going to want to linger. Allowing an "early" seating and planning to use that same table for a 10:00 seating should require enough common sense to tell them they need to set time limits on the earlier table. The restaurant was asking for trouble before they even started. I have seen many local ads for New Year's Eve here which list up to three seatings -- all with start and finish times so it is clear to all before they even book.