Wendy

I know I will really hear it for this one. This is my personal opinion and personal observations. Any child under 5 will not remember or care where you are dragging them to. I cant still the little guys face as his mother dragged him through St. Mark's Square. He was absolutely miserable and so was she. He couldnt have cared less. He should have been home with a relative playing peacefully with his toys. <BR> <BR>

Mary

touche'...

notsure

A lot of people don't have the &quot;luxury&quot; of leaving their children. Perhaps they live overseas and don't have family around to help, perhaps they choose to take care of their own. I've seen plenty of teenagers looking miserable too, perhaps everyone under 21 should be banned from walking the public streets anywhere in the world! Kids will look miserable at times anywhere in the world, the grocery store back home or the museum around the world... that is the way kids are. Did seeing that incident at St. Marks really affect your enjoyment of your vacation?

Linda

We've lived here in Europe since our son was two. No, we don't have family to leave him with and yes, we &quot;drag&quot; him everywhere with us. I think the key to travelling with young children is to have realistic expectations. A young child is not going to remember verbatim all that he sees, but it will become part of the fabric of his experiences and who knows how that will affect him later in life? We've seen the &quot;big&quot; tourist things with him but we've also seen more parks, ridden more miniature trains, and fed more swans and ducks than we ever would have without him along. Okay, those may not seem incredibly interesting to someone who wants to see the big monuments, but playing in a park with a local mother and child has definitely enriched our travel too. I fully understand the feeling of needing to see &quot;one more thing&quot; while on vacation, even if a little one is cranky and tired, but parents have to know when to take a break and realize that it makes it more miserable for everyone (parent, child and other travellers) to drag that child around. We've had to scale way back our travel pace, but in many ways, have had experiences that we never would have had we not had a child along. Go with the flow, sit back and have that second ice-cream break, and enjoy what you've been given.

Jen

I agree, Linda, travel with young ones can be great as long as you remember to look at things from their perspective. Plenty of rest and snacks. They're very concrete, so forget abstract things like history. They're inerested in the pigeons rather than the cathedral, etc. <BR><BR>But if you bring them right up to the cathedral wall to look at the stones it's made of, they're impressed with that. Keep their developmental stage in mind, and everything is interesting! If they travel a lot at every age, then they get used to seeing new things from their own developing perspective, and will appreciate things at a new level every time.

Raphael

I agree that a child under 5 is not going to get a lot out of a trip, but there are good reasons why people bring their kids with them - it's a luxury not too, and (traveling) life shouldn't end when you have kids. Personally, I've found that our experiences abroad with a child have been richer than otherwise - no, you don't get on long lines at heavily touristed locations with a 2 year old, but yes, you do dine in local, family-oriented restaurants (same as you would at home), you shop for kid-supplies in local stores, and you meet parents of children in local parks. Not a bad way to see a place!

Maurice

I remember talking to a woman who was lined up in front of us for the Ufuzzi in Florence last Sept. She had a 1-year-old in a backpack seat, and he seemed to be enjoying things. She said the hubby was back at the hotel with the 2-year-old.<BR><BR>She said the same as posters above - you look for parks, nature opportunities, and other things. When the kids need a break, it means you aren't going to see the whole museum - that's the normal hazard/delight of travelling with others. You can't be too selfish - especially with youngsters.<BR>We lost sight of her in the museum, but I never heard any cring - so I guess he was fine.

Parent

We too our 2 children to Europe when they were 2 and 9 years old for X-Mas holiday and again 2 years later. The younger one still talks about Paris and Chamonix and remembers quite a bit. Traveling with children is a great experience not only for the parents, but for the children as well.

Monica

We took my daughter to London when she was one and then to Costa Rica when she was one and a half. We did what the other posters said, scaled back our itinerary, did kid things like the aquarium that we otherwise wouldn't have, and ate dinner in our room in London because at that age our daughter wasn't fit for public after about 6:00. We all had a great time, we have some great photos, and Costa Rica especially she loved. She kept asking if every time we got in the car we were going to Costa Rica, and saying things like &quot;see caterpillars in Costa Rica? See monkeys in Costa Rica?&quot; I think it's been very good for her to travel, because it makes her more adaptable, and it's good for us too because we have the memories and the ability to take those types of vacations that we couldn't if we didn't bring her along.

xxx

Anyone who has an option, and still takes a child under 5 on vacation is gluton for punishment. Unfortunately, I've been confined in small places all too often and had to &quot;share&quot; the wonderful family experience.

rrr

We weep for you xxx. Meanwhile, suck it up and just deal with it. Presumably you're an adult and you can manage to salvage a modicum of enjoyment from your hellish circumstances.

yyy

That's right xxx, just suck it up since it's their right to be as rude as they want. Only next time start passing gas in retaliation - see how they like it.

BeenThereDoneThat

Anyone who has grown kids who started them traveling when they were little can see the huge benefits of having done so. Kids who are &quot;dragged around&quot; when they are young (and we never did anything I would remotely call &quot;dragging,&quot; rather we traveled the world with youngsters in tow, taking heed of what they needed in order to stay healthy and happy) make remarkably adaptable and informed young adults - very different from their peers who were raised on trips to Disney and the beach in Jersey. They are receptive to the concept of history as it pertains to societies whose history is ancient compared to ours, they are more willing to try and enjoy different foods, they reach out more to people of other cultures, they don't have a narrow-minded view of culture that so many young Americans have, thinking only American music and fashion are hip - in short, travel pays off big time when they get older. They think of themselves as citizens of the world, which in this global age is a good thing.<BR><BR>Sure, no one thinks a 1-year-old is going to &quot;remember&quot; Venice or &quot;get much out of&quot; Paris - but if you travel often with your kids you WILL see a difference. They are not like kids who never got &quot;dragged around.&quot; They appreciate differences; they don't expect everyone to be the same or two enjoy the same things or to speak the same language. All you liberal Americans who espouse diversity to the point of ridiculousness sometimes ought to realize that taking kids traveling from an early age promotes an attitude of acceptance of diversity. And by the way, do you think the men and women of the Armed Forces in America, who get posted all over the place, should refrain from having kids? Because god knows, they HAVE to &quot;drag&quot; their kids around the world. Tsk Tsk. <BR><BR>To the person who was so horrified by seeing the mother &quot;drag&quot; her son through St-Mark's square - hell, haven't you ever seen a mother drag a screaming kid through your grocery store? What's the difference? As you implied, the kid doesn't know where he is...he's just miserable. What's St Mark's got to do with it? What makes you think if he was home he'd be &quot;playing peacefully&quot;? I can't believe you have kids - you obviously know nothing about them. In fact, I have always believed that most of these people who complain about kids traveling are single uptight women who see their biological clocks ticking and are looking for something they can pinpoint that they'll never miss if they never find fulfillment.

Charlie

I wouldn't say that no one should ever travel with young children (although I do believe that no one should travel with - or even HAVE - badly-behaved children, unless there is some medical problem at fault). However, it's just silly to say that people MUST take their children along on pleasure trips. <BR><BR>People make a choice to have children (anyone who doesn't understand that it's a choice shouldn't have them), and they can also make a choice not to take a vacation if (1) their children are so young it will be upsetting or painful for them OR (2) the children are badly behaved and their presence will substantially and negatively impact others.

xyx

The decision to bring or not to bring their small children should be a personal one for that particular family. In our case, bringing our son to Europe at 2 years old was out of the question! He was not a child that you could distract easily and did not keep still. At that age he just was not interested in sightseeing. However, from 5 years old on he was old enough to understand and appreciate the places we visited. Of course, there are many families with kids who behave practically anywhere they go so I guess it's no problem for them to bring them along.

xxx

RE: Kiss off<BR><BR>I dare say all of us, at one time or another, have been a &quot;captured audience&quot; on a plane or crowded train and had to &quot;suck it up&quot; and endure someones spoiled brat scream, cry constantly or hurl objects. I used to try and ignore it or use a headset to lessen the audio assault, but I refuse to do so now. I insist that the parents take personal responsibility for thier little darlings and keep them under control. To those parents that do thier best to keep kids quiet, thank you. To those that don't, get with the program.

whoa

Hey xxx, what exactly does it look like when you INSIST people quiet their children? And what do you do if it doesn't work? Scream louder or hurl bigger objects??

xxx

RE: Cowboy's question on tactics <BR><BR>I'm a patient guy and assume folks will exercise thier parental responsibility. If they don't, then I start with longer and longer stares and then a few deep sighs or groans. They usually get the hint; especially when a few other folks start doing it. However, if that fails, I lean over and politely ask or motion to them to keep the little darlings quiet. I usually act like I have a headache. Vast majority already know they are wrong (they are not deaf)and merely smile and reign the kids in or take them away to the bathroom or outside the coach. A few have tried to act huffy or insulted, but they usually get with the program. In a really bad case, I ask a flight attendant to intervene. If more folks did this, then ALL passengers could enjoy the trip. BTW - I raised three kids and managed to keep them quiet when we traveled. It can be done if you use some smarts and are not selfish to those around you.

mary

My family and I are living in Europe for 3-5 years. We are traveling as much as possible while we are here. No, we don't have the luxury of leaving the little darlings with a relative. But, truthfully, I'm not sure that we would anyway. As others explained much more eloquently than I could above, my travels have been enriched by bringing them along and their perspectives have definitely broadened. We have found that if we include activities geared to the kids throughout the trip, they are much more patient when it comes time to do the &quot;adult&quot; activities. Incidentally, they usually ending up loving the &quot;adult&quot; museums, etc. We just compromise a lot; look for kids' activities and we all enjoy the trip.

Linda

A quick aside on this topic.....We took our 3 year old son to Paris in May and he absolutely loved the little pedal-powered racecars set up in the park near the Eiffel Tower. We ended up going back twice. Now if we see a picture of the Tower and ask him about it he'll reply &quot;That's that big thing where the racecars were!&quot;. I guess we all form travel memories in our own way!