would you if you could, move to the US
Jul 21st, 2008 | 03:27 AM
#222
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
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<i>Name one. Just one.</i>
Well, if you ever watch an American cop show, like Law & Order, you might be familiar with the phrase "fruit of the poisonous tree". The US is basically alone in the fact that police wrong-doing, almost necessarilly, leads to the exclusion of evidence in criminal trials. In almost every other modern legal system, the value of that evidence in proving guilt is weighed when deciding whether to admit it. In other words, illegally obtained evidence is often admissible in European/Canadian/Australian courts, when that same evidence would not be admissible in US courts.
Additionally, and pertinent to the question of immigration to the US, the US currently practices jus soli, whereby all people born on US soil are entitled to citizenship. This is not the case across much of Europe, where jus soli is either not practiced (Denmark, for example) or is modified to exclude certain groups (such as children of some immigrant groups).
Of course, this isn't to say that either of these rights are overly significant to everyone, but there are certainly rights offered by the US that are not offered elsewhere (and vice versa). I would say that, from a practical perspective, Americans and Europeans enjoy roughly equal freedoms and rights, even if there are differences around the edges.
Well, if you ever watch an American cop show, like Law & Order, you might be familiar with the phrase "fruit of the poisonous tree". The US is basically alone in the fact that police wrong-doing, almost necessarilly, leads to the exclusion of evidence in criminal trials. In almost every other modern legal system, the value of that evidence in proving guilt is weighed when deciding whether to admit it. In other words, illegally obtained evidence is often admissible in European/Canadian/Australian courts, when that same evidence would not be admissible in US courts.
Additionally, and pertinent to the question of immigration to the US, the US currently practices jus soli, whereby all people born on US soil are entitled to citizenship. This is not the case across much of Europe, where jus soli is either not practiced (Denmark, for example) or is modified to exclude certain groups (such as children of some immigrant groups).
Of course, this isn't to say that either of these rights are overly significant to everyone, but there are certainly rights offered by the US that are not offered elsewhere (and vice versa). I would say that, from a practical perspective, Americans and Europeans enjoy roughly equal freedoms and rights, even if there are differences around the edges.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 03:38 AM
#225
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
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<i>What about evidence obtained by torture?</i>
Nice try. But you are trying to compare treatment of prisoners captured in conflict to rights enjoyed by citizens/residents of a country. I know of no country that affords POWs or enemy combatants the same rights they do their own citizens or even visitors to their country.
Nice try. But you are trying to compare treatment of prisoners captured in conflict to rights enjoyed by citizens/residents of a country. I know of no country that affords POWs or enemy combatants the same rights they do their own citizens or even visitors to their country.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 03:46 AM
#227
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Posts: n/a
>>>How many people have you known that were threatened by a gun in America?
Last time I checked guns couldn't speak.
>>>Just go to any 7-eleven and ask for the last time someone wanted to pay by pointing a gun.
Show me someone that has happened to and I'll show you a liar. That would be such a remote chance. If every convenient store clerk was held up then there would be nobody who would ever take that job. I hate to say it but everything you've said has been completely ridiculous. You can't find one person who has been shot that you know personally. Or even know someone who knows someone. Oh wait, I forgot about Abraham Lincoln.
Last time I checked guns couldn't speak.
>>>Just go to any 7-eleven and ask for the last time someone wanted to pay by pointing a gun.
Show me someone that has happened to and I'll show you a liar. That would be such a remote chance. If every convenient store clerk was held up then there would be nobody who would ever take that job. I hate to say it but everything you've said has been completely ridiculous. You can't find one person who has been shot that you know personally. Or even know someone who knows someone. Oh wait, I forgot about Abraham Lincoln.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 03:55 AM
#230
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,184
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casey I don't understand why you are so offended that some Europeans don't want to live in the US. It's their opinion. It doesn't affect your ability to enjoy your country.
If I choose not to live in California because of earthquakes or Florida because of hurricanes I am sure somebody can give me statistics that show how few and far between those are and how I am more likely to be killed by a golf ball etc. Every person has their own acceptable level of threat of those things. If my tolerance of hurricanes is zero I will live in Nebraska. If my tolerance level of gun violence is zero (or close to it) I will live somewhere with strict gun control. I'm not making any comments about the good people of Florida for choosing to live there I am just saying I choose not to.
I find your comments varying between offensive, bait, or just plain silly.
By the way -- I know someone (in the US) who has:
been shot by a gun in an act of aggression
lost their mother in a gun accident
threatened someone else with a gun
been threatened by someone else with a gun.
Do I win a prize?
If I choose not to live in California because of earthquakes or Florida because of hurricanes I am sure somebody can give me statistics that show how few and far between those are and how I am more likely to be killed by a golf ball etc. Every person has their own acceptable level of threat of those things. If my tolerance of hurricanes is zero I will live in Nebraska. If my tolerance level of gun violence is zero (or close to it) I will live somewhere with strict gun control. I'm not making any comments about the good people of Florida for choosing to live there I am just saying I choose not to.
I find your comments varying between offensive, bait, or just plain silly.
By the way -- I know someone (in the US) who has:
been shot by a gun in an act of aggression
lost their mother in a gun accident
threatened someone else with a gun
been threatened by someone else with a gun.
Do I win a prize?
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:04 AM
#232
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Posts: n/a
If I had one to give it would go to you.
My whole point in all this is that if people are citing their main reason is because of gun crime I am saying that it is nothing to worry your pretty little heads about. Yes, we have guns. Yes, people get killed by guns. But it is not as big of a problem as it may seem to Europeans. Yes, if you are in the wrong areas of certain big cities it can be a bigger risk but even so that risk is very miniscule.
The Europeans have a higher risk of dying of lung cancer from hanging out at their favorite cafe or pub then they do even seeing a gun crime happen in America. It's just a stereotype that people have about America. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does. But it's like not living in Paris because your afraid all the foie gras will make you fat.
My whole point in all this is that if people are citing their main reason is because of gun crime I am saying that it is nothing to worry your pretty little heads about. Yes, we have guns. Yes, people get killed by guns. But it is not as big of a problem as it may seem to Europeans. Yes, if you are in the wrong areas of certain big cities it can be a bigger risk but even so that risk is very miniscule.
The Europeans have a higher risk of dying of lung cancer from hanging out at their favorite cafe or pub then they do even seeing a gun crime happen in America. It's just a stereotype that people have about America. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does. But it's like not living in Paris because your afraid all the foie gras will make you fat.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:06 AM
#233
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,016
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Average americans don't win prices here, it's the right wing extremists that post their fascinating views of their country that should get the pice.
They are the reason for foreigners NOT ever wanting to stay in that country for a longer time than needed.
I doubt this will change, with a new administration, there are just to many of them around.
They are the reason for foreigners NOT ever wanting to stay in that country for a longer time than needed.
I doubt this will change, with a new administration, there are just to many of them around.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:08 AM
#234
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,184
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I agree it's a stereotype. But it's one based on facts. You do admit that there is less gun control in the US than in Europe, right? Now, you may see that as a plus and some may see it as a negative. I grew up in the PNW. There is the stereotype that it always rains there. There are in fact more grey rainy days there than in San Diego. Some people see that as a negative, but I really love all the green tree and rivers and lakes, so I see it as a positive.
It's the same as the topic of gun control, albeit with less emotions. There is something about your country you view as a positive that others might view as a negative. Fine.
It's the same as the topic of gun control, albeit with less emotions. There is something about your country you view as a positive that others might view as a negative. Fine.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:26 AM
#236
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,236
Likes: 1
Casey,
In most European countries, foreigners from within the EU or outside of the EU are arriving at an incredulous amount. America is not the only country with an enormous influx of immigrants. In 2006, 20% of the inhabitants in Switzerland were not Swiss.
Taken from:
http://tinyurl.com/ypoget
In most European countries, foreigners from within the EU or outside of the EU are arriving at an incredulous amount. America is not the only country with an enormous influx of immigrants. In 2006, 20% of the inhabitants in Switzerland were not Swiss.
Taken from:
http://tinyurl.com/ypoget
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:43 AM
#237
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 0
Why is anyone bothering to reply to Casey? His comments that the US rule the world, that Europeans smell, and that you can't find 15,000 Europeans that clean their teeth (despite the fact that he has never even met a European he says) show that he is either a troll or a 10 year old playing with daddy's log-in here. Don't waste your breath people.
Jul 21st, 2008 | 04:57 AM
#238
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,624
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Chartley's post I found to be one of the more insightful posts on this thread, in that it frankly acknowledges that one must examine the people behind the decision, as well as the country to which they're (theoretically) considering heading.
A lot depends on what drives human decision making in general. Whether we choose to move or to stay, the decision is likely guided as much by gut instinct as by sound reasoning. The result is that if we are happy with our decision, it is mainly due to good luck. Intuition is great, but it is often wrong.
This is true even if we try to quantify our conjectures. Our minds will still continue to work against us.
Let's say you make € 10,000 a year (yeah, but it's only an example.) You read this thread and conjecture that if you stay in Europe, you have benefits that if ascribed a euro value, are worth an additional € 1000 at the end of EACH year you stay in Europe. Whereas if you move to the US, you receive benefits that if ascribed a euro value, are worth an additional € 300 at the end of EACH six months.
Which choice is better?
(note: the point will be illustrated even if you decide to switch things around: make the decision to move worth an additional € 1000 at the end of each year, with the decision to stay worth an additional € 300 at the end of each six months.)
A lot depends on what drives human decision making in general. Whether we choose to move or to stay, the decision is likely guided as much by gut instinct as by sound reasoning. The result is that if we are happy with our decision, it is mainly due to good luck. Intuition is great, but it is often wrong.
This is true even if we try to quantify our conjectures. Our minds will still continue to work against us.
Let's say you make € 10,000 a year (yeah, but it's only an example.) You read this thread and conjecture that if you stay in Europe, you have benefits that if ascribed a euro value, are worth an additional € 1000 at the end of EACH year you stay in Europe. Whereas if you move to the US, you receive benefits that if ascribed a euro value, are worth an additional € 300 at the end of EACH six months.
Which choice is better?
(note: the point will be illustrated even if you decide to switch things around: make the decision to move worth an additional € 1000 at the end of each year, with the decision to stay worth an additional € 300 at the end of each six months.)
Jul 21st, 2008 | 05:23 AM
#239
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,056
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It's an important point to consider individual personalities. I made it clear here that, despite mentioning some other aspects of US life that put me off, my main reason is that I wouldn't want to emigrate anywhere really. I don't have that personality to totally uproot myself, but I can admire the courage of some of those that do. My feelings on this would be strongly influenced by other factors though if I came from a developing country rather than the UK. You have to balance up what you lose with what you gain, and not just financially. I wouldn't personally gain enough to compensate me for the loses. Many other people who are moving all round the world have a different viewpoint, because they come from a different background.
