Why is pickpocketing such a problem in Europe?
Jun 12th, 2003, 01:21 PM
#41
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No need to apologize, smueller, nor to be so condescending. You haven't "shattered [my] idealized view of Europe."
My opinion (which is just that) of Europe is based on having lived and traveled extensively abroad, just as my opinion of life in the States is based, at least in part, on having lived and worked in the legal field in Washington, DC (which, I might add, some foreign visitors might be interested in visting). I suspect this might give me a somewhat different view than that I might form by trying to judge all of Western Europe based on outdated statistics about the UK.
Obviously, you are happier here, just as most Europeans are happier there. I'm sure they would never try to convert you to the other side.
My opinion (which is just that) of Europe is based on having lived and traveled extensively abroad, just as my opinion of life in the States is based, at least in part, on having lived and worked in the legal field in Washington, DC (which, I might add, some foreign visitors might be interested in visting). I suspect this might give me a somewhat different view than that I might form by trying to judge all of Western Europe based on outdated statistics about the UK.
Obviously, you are happier here, just as most Europeans are happier there. I'm sure they would never try to convert you to the other side.
Jun 12th, 2003, 03:53 PM
#43
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You do not need your passport to reboard any cruise ship, that went out long ago. All you need is you room key/charge card, it has your picture encoded on it for id. The guard will check you out when you insert your card in the reader and look at your face to see if it is a match, this all came in after 9/11. Buck
Jun 12th, 2003, 04:24 PM
#45
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Someone tried to pick-pocket me once on the Milan Metro. Dumb-@sses tried the push/squeeze routine boarding an almost-empty subway car without realizing my wife was with me. And, they weren't very delicate or sly about it... I grabbed one, my wife shook the other. If he'd succeeded he would have gotten $5 or so.
I think the problem is that the Europeans are more "down" on violent crime and less so on property crimes. Americans have far more rights and more access to firearms, so they tend to do mugging; after all, Americans tend to get about the same sentence whether committing hold-ups or sneak thievery.
There are far more people in prison as a result in America. I guess Europeans save the prisons for the violent criminals and let the others walk sooner. There seems to be less of an attitude to "lock everyone up!" Instead, the Europeans seems to take measures to prevent sneak thievery. For example, BMW and Audi have locking seat-backs so you need a key to open the trunk. Any Detroit tin cans and Japanese cars, once you're in the cab, you can usually pop the trunk with a button or lever.
You can usually judge the degree of property crime concern by whether a city has those roll-up metal store fronts. For years, I associated those with only American inner-city and European cities. They used to be a rarity in Toronto.
There's the story about why Toronto had about one-tenth the bank robberies of Montreal in the late fifties and early sixties... when the police heard about a known bank robber from Montreal in town, they drove him down to secluded Cherry beach, beat the &^%$ out of him, and drove him to the train station. Apparently Winnipeg used the same technique on Chicago mob types looking to expand their territory.
Europeans, from what I've gathered, have limited tolerance for the excessive rights that American justice gives to the accused - we know they're guilty, why waste effort trying to be too fair? (Heck, check out how Code Napolean trials work!) Unfortunately, this limited tolerance exists also in some aspects of liberties we take for granted - until now. My last visit to New York was the first time I'd been asked for any ID when checking into a North AMerican hotel.
So, you trade a little liberty for a little security. Or a lot... Americans will have to decide how far they want to go for security...
I think the problem is that the Europeans are more "down" on violent crime and less so on property crimes. Americans have far more rights and more access to firearms, so they tend to do mugging; after all, Americans tend to get about the same sentence whether committing hold-ups or sneak thievery.
There are far more people in prison as a result in America. I guess Europeans save the prisons for the violent criminals and let the others walk sooner. There seems to be less of an attitude to "lock everyone up!" Instead, the Europeans seems to take measures to prevent sneak thievery. For example, BMW and Audi have locking seat-backs so you need a key to open the trunk. Any Detroit tin cans and Japanese cars, once you're in the cab, you can usually pop the trunk with a button or lever.
You can usually judge the degree of property crime concern by whether a city has those roll-up metal store fronts. For years, I associated those with only American inner-city and European cities. They used to be a rarity in Toronto.
There's the story about why Toronto had about one-tenth the bank robberies of Montreal in the late fifties and early sixties... when the police heard about a known bank robber from Montreal in town, they drove him down to secluded Cherry beach, beat the &^%$ out of him, and drove him to the train station. Apparently Winnipeg used the same technique on Chicago mob types looking to expand their territory.
Europeans, from what I've gathered, have limited tolerance for the excessive rights that American justice gives to the accused - we know they're guilty, why waste effort trying to be too fair? (Heck, check out how Code Napolean trials work!) Unfortunately, this limited tolerance exists also in some aspects of liberties we take for granted - until now. My last visit to New York was the first time I'd been asked for any ID when checking into a North AMerican hotel.
So, you trade a little liberty for a little security. Or a lot... Americans will have to decide how far they want to go for security...
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:28 AM
#46
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In my experience when the guidebooks talk about "pickpockets" they are usually referring to "Gypsys" or "the Roma people", who are mostly from Eastern Europe and therefore more prevalent within Europe than within the US. It's not the politically correct thing to say, but there it is. These people usually use children to distract you, or else a mother will try to hand you her baby while the kids go take your purse. We've had this exerience in Paris and Brussels, but somehow managed to avoid it in Italy.
In Amsterdam, you need to watch out for drug addicts who will steal from you. Its usually your bike they want to steal though, as opposed to your belongings.
And yes, I know plenty of Europeans who think that all Americans walk around with guns in their pockets and are afraid to go because of it. As we all know, that's ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than some of the fears Americans take with themselves to Europe.
In Amsterdam, you need to watch out for drug addicts who will steal from you. Its usually your bike they want to steal though, as opposed to your belongings.
And yes, I know plenty of Europeans who think that all Americans walk around with guns in their pockets and are afraid to go because of it. As we all know, that's ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than some of the fears Americans take with themselves to Europe.
Jun 13th, 2003, 04:58 AM
#47
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When we went to London about 5 years ago, our children were 10 and 8. When we were exiting the Tube, my husband notice 2 men following us. He told us to stay close to each other. When got outside, one of the guy got on one side of us, and the other guy got on the other side of us. They started moving closer to us, but then my husband got out his video camera and started filming them. As he was filming, he start talking loud and he started saying - these guys are following us, get a good look at them, etc. The 2 guys quickly ran away. To this day, I wonder what those guy had in mind.
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:10 AM
#48
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Pickpocketing is not a big problem in Europe. You are most vulnerable on an underground railway in a metropolitan area (ie the London Underground, Paris Metro) or in a crowded area in a big city.
I do not think that pickpocketing is anymore prevalent in London or Paris than it is NYC (where I used to live and work).
Recently there has been a lot of press coverage about gangs from eastern Europe (particularly Albanian gangs using small cildren) targeting tourists in places like Barcelona, London and Paris.
Just be aware and ity is very unlikley you will be targeted.
Why would they target an alert tourist when a sleepy one will soon come along?
I do not think that pickpocketing is anymore prevalent in London or Paris than it is NYC (where I used to live and work).
Recently there has been a lot of press coverage about gangs from eastern Europe (particularly Albanian gangs using small cildren) targeting tourists in places like Barcelona, London and Paris.
Just be aware and ity is very unlikley you will be targeted.
Why would they target an alert tourist when a sleepy one will soon come along?
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:27 AM
#49
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Well I guess it is good that I am not much for kids
I guess some people would be taken in by a bunch of young kids around them while I would find them a nuisance. I guess that would help me avoid them if I see a bunch of them around.
I guess some people would be taken in by a bunch of young kids around them while I would find them a nuisance. I guess that would help me avoid them if I see a bunch of them around.
Jun 13th, 2003, 05:39 AM
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I have to say I know 2 people who were mugged in Europe...Paris to be exact. With my sister in law they got her wallet. My brother-in -law was walking out of the metro...up the steps...and one person grabbed his ankle to try to make him fall while the other tried to get his wallet. Luckily he was able to fight them off. I live in NY and have never been mugged or pickpocketed in fact one time I dropped my wallet and didn't realize it and someone ran after me to give it back. NY gets a bad rap.
Jun 13th, 2003, 09:50 AM
#51
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Scottee25, it's not that one is charmed by the gang of kids. Rather, they swarm around you, grab at you and distract you while one of them grabs your wallet or purse.
I saw a "gypsy" mother and child working the train from Termini to the Rome airport. The child was begging, and when a kind but naive young woman got out her money purse to give him a few coins, the brat snatched the whole purse and they both jumped off the train just as it pulled away from the station. She was lucky she only lost a few hundred euros (she was just leaving on holiday) and not her passport and credit cards.
I saw a "gypsy" mother and child working the train from Termini to the Rome airport. The child was begging, and when a kind but naive young woman got out her money purse to give him a few coins, the brat snatched the whole purse and they both jumped off the train just as it pulled away from the station. She was lucky she only lost a few hundred euros (she was just leaving on holiday) and not her passport and credit cards.
Jun 13th, 2003, 10:21 AM
#53
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Well, not in the nose, but a very good right upper cut 
The idiot was about the same height (maybe a little bit taller) as me but at least 10-15 kg less in weight. Which made him look small and wimpy. And of course girls think they're bigger than they really are. So my first reaction was to laugh at him...and it went downhill (for him) from there....
The idiot was about the same height (maybe a little bit taller) as me but at least 10-15 kg less in weight. Which made him look small and wimpy. And of course girls think they're bigger than they really are. So my first reaction was to laugh at him...and it went downhill (for him) from there....
Jun 13th, 2003, 10:26 AM
#55
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lillehavfrue said she gave a knuckle sandwich to one in Amsterdam. I know I would if I caught one trying to rob me.
Marilyn, the good thing about kids, depending on their size, is you can punt them for distance But in all seriousness, I do NOT plan to carry a wallet on me and I am pretty sure my wife does not plan to carry a purse. I plan to carry one bag while in port that will have our camera, travel guides, maps, copies of important papers, etc. May also get a travel wallet that you hang around your neck and have my wife wear it... that way if someone is gonna get it, they will have to reach down her shirt which she will feel. Still, as far as the kids go... a few good swift warning kicks should be enough to get them to shoo. Kids are easy to intimidate(Atleast they were in Ecuador) and I will not hesitate to do so if I feel they have impure motives.
Marilyn, the good thing about kids, depending on their size, is you can punt them for distance
But in all seriousness, I do NOT plan to carry a wallet on me and I am pretty sure my wife does not plan to carry a purse. I plan to carry one bag while in port that will have our camera, travel guides, maps, copies of important papers, etc. May also get a travel wallet that you hang around your neck and have my wife wear it... that way if someone is gonna get it, they will have to reach down her shirt which she will feel. Still, as far as the kids go... a few good swift warning kicks should be enough to get them to shoo. Kids are easy to intimidate(Atleast they were in Ecuador) and I will not hesitate to do so if I feel they have impure motives.
Jun 13th, 2003, 11:57 AM
#56
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I agree that the kids are easy to handle IF you are aware of what's going on. They rely on the element of surprise and the basic instinct of most adults not to harm a child.
Don't fret about this stuff too much. We just returned from a month in Europe which included Paris where we traveled daily on the Metro. My husband is a photographer and carries a lot of expensive gear with him, and it's impossible to disguise what it is.
But we observe the precautions I posted earlier and in dozens and dozens of trips to Europe, Asia, Mexico, etc, we have never been the victims or even attempted victims of pickpocketing. Have a wonderful trip!
Don't fret about this stuff too much. We just returned from a month in Europe which included Paris where we traveled daily on the Metro. My husband is a photographer and carries a lot of expensive gear with him, and it's impossible to disguise what it is.
But we observe the precautions I posted earlier and in dozens and dozens of trips to Europe, Asia, Mexico, etc, we have never been the victims or even attempted victims of pickpocketing. Have a wonderful trip!
Jun 13th, 2003, 12:16 PM
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No one is saying there isn't crime in the US, but this is an interesting question. I'll go out on a limb with a few theories.
1. Maybe European criminals consider American tourists good targets, but American criminals don't consider Europeans good targets. Or American criminals have more difficulty distinguishing between their compatriots and European visitors.
2. Pickpocketing used to be more prevelant in the US but American criminals have moved on to other enterprises but the European criminals stuck with "older," more traditional crime.
3. Maybe European criminals are more xenophobic than American criminals or American criminals just don't know where Europeans carry their money or think they're carrying foreign currency they'll have trouble exchanging?
1. Maybe European criminals consider American tourists good targets, but American criminals don't consider Europeans good targets. Or American criminals have more difficulty distinguishing between their compatriots and European visitors.
2. Pickpocketing used to be more prevelant in the US but American criminals have moved on to other enterprises but the European criminals stuck with "older," more traditional crime.
3. Maybe European criminals are more xenophobic than American criminals or American criminals just don't know where Europeans carry their money or think they're carrying foreign currency they'll have trouble exchanging?
Jun 13th, 2003, 08:32 PM
#58
Just curious, Scottee if you aren't planning to carry a wallet or your wife carry a purse, where will you keep your money???
You mention "in port" ... if you are on a cruise you'd only need one days worth of cash anyway, no?
A neck pouch or money belt is normally used for longer travel with passport, cash, documents, etc. and stays *under* your clothing at all times.
You mention "in port" ... if you are on a cruise you'd only need one days worth of cash anyway, no?
A neck pouch or money belt is normally used for longer travel with passport, cash, documents, etc. and stays *under* your clothing at all times.
Jun 14th, 2003, 06:03 AM
#59
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Suze,
More than likely will keep the cash and credit card in my camera bag. Since the bag is easy to lock up, they would have to take the whole bag or at the very least cut it open to get into it. And yes you are correct, I will only be in port for a max of 13 hours at any given time and only need to carry enough cash to cover the day. I would like to avoid carrying anything in any of my pants pockets if I can avoid it.
More than likely will keep the cash and credit card in my camera bag. Since the bag is easy to lock up, they would have to take the whole bag or at the very least cut it open to get into it. And yes you are correct, I will only be in port for a max of 13 hours at any given time and only need to carry enough cash to cover the day. I would like to avoid carrying anything in any of my pants pockets if I can avoid it.
Jun 14th, 2003, 06:26 AM
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I'm amused by some of the comments about supposed reactions to a pickpocket.
I've traveled many times to London, Paris, Rome and Amsterdam in the last decade and travel mostly by subway without incident. But I was the target of a pickpocket a year ago at the Tuileries Metro station while with my wife and 2 grandchildren. It was the conventional method: man in front of me drops something while entering the train, bends down to pick it up, I stop, man behind bumps into me and both are gone as the doors are closing. It couldn't have taken more than 10 seconds. They didn't get anything because I don't keep anything except a few small bills and coins in my pockets. I wear a pouch that can be worn around my neck under my shirt or with my belt thru loops and inside my trousers. It's sold by Samsonite.
My camera (when not in use), guidebooks and small purchases I keep in a backpack that has those plastic clippy things and a draw string under the flap to keep it closed. It may also contain a fleece sweater and/or waterproof jacket. It has little drawstring pockets on the outside for water bottles. Since it takes me about 3 minutes and two hands to open it, I figure no thief will bother to try.
The point I'm making is that you won't react fast enough to prevent a skilled, professional pickpocket from taking your goodies if you have left them unprotected. The trick is not to be the slowest zebra in the herd.
I don't have a clue about stopping a mugger. Frankly, if one came at me with a weapon I'd strip naked if necessary and that would not be a pretty sight.
I've traveled many times to London, Paris, Rome and Amsterdam in the last decade and travel mostly by subway without incident. But I was the target of a pickpocket a year ago at the Tuileries Metro station while with my wife and 2 grandchildren. It was the conventional method: man in front of me drops something while entering the train, bends down to pick it up, I stop, man behind bumps into me and both are gone as the doors are closing. It couldn't have taken more than 10 seconds. They didn't get anything because I don't keep anything except a few small bills and coins in my pockets. I wear a pouch that can be worn around my neck under my shirt or with my belt thru loops and inside my trousers. It's sold by Samsonite.
My camera (when not in use), guidebooks and small purchases I keep in a backpack that has those plastic clippy things and a draw string under the flap to keep it closed. It may also contain a fleece sweater and/or waterproof jacket. It has little drawstring pockets on the outside for water bottles. Since it takes me about 3 minutes and two hands to open it, I figure no thief will bother to try.
The point I'm making is that you won't react fast enough to prevent a skilled, professional pickpocket from taking your goodies if you have left them unprotected. The trick is not to be the slowest zebra in the herd.
I don't have a clue about stopping a mugger. Frankly, if one came at me with a weapon I'd strip naked if necessary and that would not be a pretty sight.
