Why is Fierenze called Florence?
Jun 16th, 2006, 10:33 AM
#41
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The discussion have been interesting, but I always thought the answer was a lot simpler: The custom is, when naming foreign cities or countries, to do so in your own language.
For instance, Americans say "Switzerland," but that not what Italians call it. Each country uses its own spelling and pronunciation.
The exception seems to be, for whatever reason, American cities. As far as I know, for example, Philadelphia is called Phildelphia everywhere in the world. Same with Miami, Washington, etc.
For instance, Americans say "Switzerland," but that not what Italians call it. Each country uses its own spelling and pronunciation.
The exception seems to be, for whatever reason, American cities. As far as I know, for example, Philadelphia is called Phildelphia everywhere in the world. Same with Miami, Washington, etc.
Jun 16th, 2006, 10:38 AM
#42
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Larry, I studied a couple of historical linguistics modules (including Romance linguistics) at university and found it fascinating, especially sound change rules. One of the things we had to do was study Old French and Spanish texts and describe how the lexical, syntactical and phonetic structures had evolved from Latin. Doesn't sound like fun but I loved it!
I find that having a basic knowledge of the principles of sound change often helps in my day-to-day job (I'm a translator). I'm now learning Romanian and it's really interesting to see how it compares to and differs from the other Romance languages.
I find that having a basic knowledge of the principles of sound change often helps in my day-to-day job (I'm a translator). I'm now learning Romanian and it's really interesting to see how it compares to and differs from the other Romance languages.
Jun 16th, 2006, 10:47 AM
#43
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>American cities
i.e Neu York (mostly Swiss), San Franzisko, Kalifornien, Pensilvanien.
Whereever people migrated, they used their own words. The Amish are absolutly fascinating in that respect. The still speak their german dialect after generations..
i.e Neu York (mostly Swiss), San Franzisko, Kalifornien, Pensilvanien.
Whereever people migrated, they used their own words. The Amish are absolutly fascinating in that respect. The still speak their german dialect after generations..
Jun 16th, 2006, 11:21 AM
#44
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Switzerland is Schweiz (in German), Suisse (in French), Svizzera (in Italian), Suiza (in Spanish), and on and on.
Question: So why is CH Switzerland's nationality plate (like F for France and D for Deutschland and I for Italy)?
Answer: CHeese and CHocolate, of course.
No, not really, it's because Sweden got the S, so the Swiss resorted back to the Roman days when that region was known as the Helvetic Confederation, in Latin Confoederatio Helvetica.
It gets trickier: What is known to English-speaking tourists as the Lake Geneva is, in French, Lac Léman (Léman is the name of the region), and in German Genfersee, just as the Bodensee is, in English, often called Lake Konstanz (or, anglicized, Lake Constance).
The Swiss with their three (in practicality) and four (in law) languages call Geneva alternatively Genf, Genève, Ginevra, or even in Spanish Ginebra - and because it hosts so many international institutions - Geneva is also commonly recognized.
This is all bewildering to Americans, and no big deal, even normal, to anyone who grew up in Europe, where New York can be found spelled as Neu York (Germany) or Nuova York (Italy) etc., and London could be Londres or Londra, and München can be Munich (in both French and English), Monaco (di Baviera - of Bavaria, to contrast it from Monaco near Monte Carlo) in both Italian and Spanish, and Bayern is German for Bavaria - Bavière - Baviera...
Just don't ever mix up Austria and Australia!
WK
Question: So why is CH Switzerland's nationality plate (like F for France and D for Deutschland and I for Italy)?
Answer: CHeese and CHocolate, of course.
No, not really, it's because Sweden got the S, so the Swiss resorted back to the Roman days when that region was known as the Helvetic Confederation, in Latin Confoederatio Helvetica.
It gets trickier: What is known to English-speaking tourists as the Lake Geneva is, in French, Lac Léman (Léman is the name of the region), and in German Genfersee, just as the Bodensee is, in English, often called Lake Konstanz (or, anglicized, Lake Constance).
The Swiss with their three (in practicality) and four (in law) languages call Geneva alternatively Genf, Genève, Ginevra, or even in Spanish Ginebra - and because it hosts so many international institutions - Geneva is also commonly recognized.
This is all bewildering to Americans, and no big deal, even normal, to anyone who grew up in Europe, where New York can be found spelled as Neu York (Germany) or Nuova York (Italy) etc., and London could be Londres or Londra, and München can be Munich (in both French and English), Monaco (di Baviera - of Bavaria, to contrast it from Monaco near Monte Carlo) in both Italian and Spanish, and Bayern is German for Bavaria - Bavière - Baviera...
Just don't ever mix up Austria and Australia!
WK
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:43 PM
#47
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hanl, good to hear from you again.
I'm glad to hear you're studying Romanian. Among the five major Romance languages, it's often left out. You'll notice that in the book I cited, Romanian is omitted.
(I noticed a typo in my earlier posting here. "Full" in Spanish is "lleno", not "llono".)
I recall making some comment in an Italian class, and trying to come up with the Italian word for "slave", which I didn't know. I knew the word "esclave" in French, and knew that while Spanish almost always has that leading "e", and French sometimes, Italian almost always loses it, leaving something like "sclave" or "sclavo". But by a slight extension of "Rule 30", the "l" in that initial "scl-" was certain to change to an "i", leaving "schiave", or, if it is masculine, possibly "schiavo" (with the "h" needing to be inserted into the spelling to keep the "c" hard). Since this referred to a person, "schiavo" seemed more likely.
BINGO - guessed it!
Speaking a foreign language is nothing like speaking my own. Sometimes an awful lot of thinking goes by in that slight pause before I say a word.
- Larry
I'm glad to hear you're studying Romanian. Among the five major Romance languages, it's often left out. You'll notice that in the book I cited, Romanian is omitted.
(I noticed a typo in my earlier posting here. "Full" in Spanish is "lleno", not "llono".)
I recall making some comment in an Italian class, and trying to come up with the Italian word for "slave", which I didn't know. I knew the word "esclave" in French, and knew that while Spanish almost always has that leading "e", and French sometimes, Italian almost always loses it, leaving something like "sclave" or "sclavo". But by a slight extension of "Rule 30", the "l" in that initial "scl-" was certain to change to an "i", leaving "schiave", or, if it is masculine, possibly "schiavo" (with the "h" needing to be inserted into the spelling to keep the "c" hard). Since this referred to a person, "schiavo" seemed more likely.
BINGO - guessed it!
Speaking a foreign language is nothing like speaking my own. Sometimes an awful lot of thinking goes by in that slight pause before I say a word.
- Larry
Jun 17th, 2006, 09:05 AM
#50
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Kenderina, on the Spanish google site www.google.es I see entries like
Vuelos Monaco di Baviera- Roma , busque para los vuelos que interesan a usted ya las reservas su alojamiento a Roma. En la pocos minutos usted podrá planear ...
http://www.bb-roma.it/posadas-roma-p...IDContatto=626
and
A pesar de que Felice DallŽAbaco (Verona, 1675 - Monaco di Baviera, 1742) fue un compositor prolífico y muy admirado en su época, se le recuerda sobre todo ..
Exceptions?
WK
Vuelos Monaco di Baviera- Roma , busque para los vuelos que interesan a usted ya las reservas su alojamiento a Roma. En la pocos minutos usted podrá planear ...
http://www.bb-roma.it/posadas-roma-p...IDContatto=626
and
A pesar de que Felice DallŽAbaco (Verona, 1675 - Monaco di Baviera, 1742) fue un compositor prolífico y muy admirado en su época, se le recuerda sobre todo ..
Exceptions?
WK
Jun 17th, 2006, 10:51 PM
#51
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Never heard of Monaco de Baviera, Munich has always been Munich in Spanish (by always I mean at least from the XX century). It may be a bad translation from another language. We pronounce it "mooneech".
Jun 18th, 2006, 05:27 AM
#53
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Hi gaegrand
>Who decided that we would henceforth call Peking Beijing? <
The government of the People's Republic of China.
>And why?
They wanted Westerners to pronounce their names more like the way they are pronounced by the government of the PRC.
Thus, Peking (which had been Pekin) became Beijing, Mao Tse Tung became Mao ZeDong, Chou en lai became Zhou Enlai, etc.
>Who decided that we would henceforth call Peking Beijing? <
The government of the People's Republic of China.
>And why?
They wanted Westerners to pronounce their names more like the way they are pronounced by the government of the PRC.
Thus, Peking (which had been Pekin) became Beijing, Mao Tse Tung became Mao ZeDong, Chou en lai became Zhou Enlai, etc.
Jun 18th, 2006, 05:36 AM
#54
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Gaegrand, I believe that the name Peking is based on an old and eclectic way of transcribing (romanising) Chinese, and also on a now obsolete pronounciation.
So where the old system wrote Peking and Nanking, the modern system uses Beijing and Nanjing, which apparently are phonetically closer to their Chinese equivalents.
As Ira says, the name Beijing (rather than Peking) was imposed by the Communist party in 1949.
So where the old system wrote Peking and Nanking, the modern system uses Beijing and Nanjing, which apparently are phonetically closer to their Chinese equivalents.
As Ira says, the name Beijing (rather than Peking) was imposed by the Communist party in 1949.
