Why can't they speak English!
May 30th, 2010, 02:54 AM
#82
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>>>>
What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?
>>>>>>
great example.
sadly this person would be very limited in his or her career and would probably be very frustrated with the ceiling that could not be broken through without knowing english. anyway, english would be taught to this person for many years from a young age and if he couldn't grasp enough of it to get by then this learning disability would be very sad indeed because of the impact it would have on his talent for maths. perhaps they would be so frustrated that they would never really grow this natural talent to its fullest and might just 'drop out' of life.
this gifted maths genius would not be able to succeed in high academic world or the business world. he would be locked out of many opportunities as a professor or student. forget a business career to fit that talent. for example, i have worked with actuaries and financial 'quants' from many countries from russia to france to eastern europe, china, taiwan, malaysia, etc, etc, etc. i have NEVER met one who could not speak english. almost all papers on these topics are in english and not easily translatable electronically. even french companies that hire oodles of maths geniuses like axa, soc gen, bnp paribas, CA, etc would not hire this person for a real job without english. them are the realities of today, i'm sorry to say.
this would be very sad indeed. thanks for the great example. just let me know if you want to talk about a russian computer genius who doesn't speak any english or anything else...
What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?
>>>>>>
great example.
sadly this person would be very limited in his or her career and would probably be very frustrated with the ceiling that could not be broken through without knowing english. anyway, english would be taught to this person for many years from a young age and if he couldn't grasp enough of it to get by then this learning disability would be very sad indeed because of the impact it would have on his talent for maths. perhaps they would be so frustrated that they would never really grow this natural talent to its fullest and might just 'drop out' of life.
this gifted maths genius would not be able to succeed in high academic world or the business world. he would be locked out of many opportunities as a professor or student. forget a business career to fit that talent. for example, i have worked with actuaries and financial 'quants' from many countries from russia to france to eastern europe, china, taiwan, malaysia, etc, etc, etc. i have NEVER met one who could not speak english. almost all papers on these topics are in english and not easily translatable electronically. even french companies that hire oodles of maths geniuses like axa, soc gen, bnp paribas, CA, etc would not hire this person for a real job without english. them are the realities of today, i'm sorry to say.
this would be very sad indeed. thanks for the great example. just let me know if you want to talk about a russian computer genius who doesn't speak any english or anything else...
May 30th, 2010, 03:38 AM
#83
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,485
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
walkinaround
you are right up to a point. If you are truly a maths (English English) genius you would be following colleagues at Caltech, MIT etc so you would understand English.
You mention various leading French financial companies. France has an enviable reputation in its maths educational system and whilst many work in Paris a substantial number work in the City of London. Though not a quant the fabulous Fabrice Tourre of Goldman Sachs fame is, of course, French.
you are right up to a point. If you are truly a maths (English English) genius you would be following colleagues at Caltech, MIT etc so you would understand English.
You mention various leading French financial companies. France has an enviable reputation in its maths educational system and whilst many work in Paris a substantial number work in the City of London. Though not a quant the fabulous Fabrice Tourre of Goldman Sachs fame is, of course, French.
May 30th, 2010, 04:49 AM
#84
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?
Genius is irrelevant beyond high school level, if you cannot follow what other people have done in the area of your genius. And most publications of more relevant stuff are either in English, or bilingual, one of the languages being English.
Genius is irrelevant beyond high school level, if you cannot follow what other people have done in the area of your genius. And most publications of more relevant stuff are either in English, or bilingual, one of the languages being English.
May 30th, 2010, 05:46 AM
#85
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you think that English has become the universal language you are certainly in cloud-cukoo land. English as the international language - that's an urban legend!
I live in London and if anyone says to me “everyone speaks English” my answer is “Listen and look around you”. If people in London do not speak English then the whole question of a global language is completely open.
The promulgation of English as the world’s “lingua franca” is impractical and linguistically undemocratic. I say this as a native English speaker!
Impractical because communication should be for all and not only for an educational or political elite. That is how English is used internationally at the moment.
Undemocratic because minority languages are under attack worldwide due to the encroachment of majority ethnic languages. Even Mandarin Chinese is attempting to dominate as well. The long-term solution must be found and a non-national language, which places all ethnic languages on an equal footing is essential. As a native English speaker, my vote is for Esperanto
Your readers may be interested in seeing http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...38938991452670 A glimpse of the language can be seen at http://www.lernu.net
A glimpse of the global language,Esperanto, can be seen at http://www.lernu.net
I live in London and if anyone says to me “everyone speaks English” my answer is “Listen and look around you”. If people in London do not speak English then the whole question of a global language is completely open.
The promulgation of English as the world’s “lingua franca” is impractical and linguistically undemocratic. I say this as a native English speaker!
Impractical because communication should be for all and not only for an educational or political elite. That is how English is used internationally at the moment.
Undemocratic because minority languages are under attack worldwide due to the encroachment of majority ethnic languages. Even Mandarin Chinese is attempting to dominate as well. The long-term solution must be found and a non-national language, which places all ethnic languages on an equal footing is essential. As a native English speaker, my vote is for Esperanto
Your readers may be interested in seeing http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...38938991452670 A glimpse of the language can be seen at http://www.lernu.net
A glimpse of the global language,Esperanto, can be seen at http://www.lernu.net
May 30th, 2010, 06:17 AM
#86
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With all due respect, but that is a bunch of nonsense.
No one said that "everybody speaks English". The key statement was that person A goes to a foreign country and meets person B there, and can NOT communicate in the foreign language. In that situation, at least in Europe, English would be the 1st choice to communicate.
When I am in London with a (German) friend, I also do not talk to him in English. What does that prove?
When we go into a pub and order a beer, we do so in English. If someone started to order an ale in Italian at "Ye Olde Swan", I'd find that person a bit silly - at least. If that person did so on his BA flight from Rome to London, he'd have much better chances as one of the FAs might indeed be able to speak Italian on that route.
"Educational elite"? I beg your pardon. In Germany, kids have to take English from grade 5 (some even do in elementary school now) until they finish middle school in grade 10, or graduate from high school in grade 13. English is part of the basic curriculum as well as German or math.
We are not talking about being able to discuss Dickens or Updike in English in a tourist information in Northern Italy, but the ability to ask for or show the way to a hotel, the train station, or to order a simple meal.
No one said that "everybody speaks English". The key statement was that person A goes to a foreign country and meets person B there, and can NOT communicate in the foreign language. In that situation, at least in Europe, English would be the 1st choice to communicate.
When I am in London with a (German) friend, I also do not talk to him in English. What does that prove?
When we go into a pub and order a beer, we do so in English. If someone started to order an ale in Italian at "Ye Olde Swan", I'd find that person a bit silly - at least. If that person did so on his BA flight from Rome to London, he'd have much better chances as one of the FAs might indeed be able to speak Italian on that route.
"Educational elite"? I beg your pardon. In Germany, kids have to take English from grade 5 (some even do in elementary school now) until they finish middle school in grade 10, or graduate from high school in grade 13. English is part of the basic curriculum as well as German or math.
We are not talking about being able to discuss Dickens or Updike in English in a tourist information in Northern Italy, but the ability to ask for or show the way to a hotel, the train station, or to order a simple meal.
May 30th, 2010, 07:23 AM
#88
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 15,793
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?'
My father was an excellent mathematician , engineer and university professor. In school, ( Europe between the wars) he learned Latin, German and French. He also spoke Spanish, Italian and was able to read several Slavic languages. The language he learned later in life, because he realize it was necessary even for a "math" person, was English. He went on to spend a year in London
completing another masters degree. It was in the early 1950's.
My father was an excellent mathematician , engineer and university professor. In school, ( Europe between the wars) he learned Latin, German and French. He also spoke Spanish, Italian and was able to read several Slavic languages. The language he learned later in life, because he realize it was necessary even for a "math" person, was English. He went on to spend a year in London
completing another masters degree. It was in the early 1950's.
May 30th, 2010, 08:56 AM
#89
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nochblad...i completely agree with you. it is nearly inconceivable that a maths genius born recently in paris today (or within the past 30-40 years) would grow up into adulthood and beyond never knowing english. i was merely responding to the hypothetical example given by someone who thinks this could happen. the only way it would happen is in a very unusual case of social isolation or a rather severe learning disability or mental illness.
in fact, i'm not sure of the context of this comment. i had assumed that this person meant that a maths genius in paris could progress through a career not knowing or not needing to know any english. as i said, inconceivable unless it is a very unusual case and my point was that if it did somehow happen the person would be very limited.
and you're right that the City (of london) is filled with french maths wizzes progressing their careers where they can make some real money and hone their international skills.
i'm always shocked when these kinds of topics come up and people (usually american europhiles) talk about english like it's just another language....completely unaware of the globalised world and how people connect...as you say top maths students at x (ecole polytechnique) in paris collaborating with top students at caltech and mit over the internet, etc. and the same students at x collaborating in english with russians, germans, etc.
in fact, i'm not sure of the context of this comment. i had assumed that this person meant that a maths genius in paris could progress through a career not knowing or not needing to know any english. as i said, inconceivable unless it is a very unusual case and my point was that if it did somehow happen the person would be very limited.
and you're right that the City (of london) is filled with french maths wizzes progressing their careers where they can make some real money and hone their international skills.
i'm always shocked when these kinds of topics come up and people (usually american europhiles) talk about english like it's just another language....completely unaware of the globalised world and how people connect...as you say top maths students at x (ecole polytechnique) in paris collaborating with top students at caltech and mit over the internet, etc. and the same students at x collaborating in english with russians, germans, etc.
May 30th, 2010, 09:40 AM
#90
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cowboy - re: "We have 500 million people in the EU alone, with 23 recognized official languages, and 3 official "working languages". But my experiences from growing up, living, and travelling in Europe the past 42 years, and working for a company that has subsidiaries in 14 European countries: English is the lingua franca. Period."
I agree with your points. Fits our experience exactly.
Last year DH and I lived in Amsterdam (we're from the US). He is a scientist/professor who was there for a year doing research at a major university medical center in Amsterdam.
There were people in his lab from the Netherlands, of course, but also from Russia, China, Croatia, France, Germany, Italy, Greece, and other countries. When they needed to talk to each other, they spoke English. All the seminars at the medical center are delivered in English. (As a side note, and I've told this story before, DH said his only trouble understanding anyone was his inability to decipher the utterances of the Scottish guy in his lab.)
When you deal with a multi-national work force (and I don't mean from two or three countries, I mean from 20), there has to be a lingua franca. And in our experience, in Europe, English is it.
I've also commented on this before, but I think some of us well-meaning Americans try so hard to not be "ugly Americans", that we feel somehow guilty that our language has become the lingua franca - so we are loath to recognize and admit it. It seems unfair somehow that we get off so easily in the language-learning necessities. But that doesn't change the facts on the ground.
I sometimes get the idea that people think they are being enlightened and sophisticated when they insist that everyone should conduct business in the language of the country they are in. Pardon me, and I know their intentions are the best, but I think they are really displaying a sort of lack of current experience. As someone said above, that approach is fine for people going to a couple of countries on a tourist basis, but for someone working internationally either in many different countries or with people from many different countries, it is just silly.
If the Russian and Chinese (for example) scientists in DH's lab in Amsterdam had had to learn Dutch fluently enough to discuss molecular biology and virology in it, very little of their real work would have gotten done. And then a few years later, when they were doing a stint at the Pasteur institute, they would have had to learn French. And then when they went to do a fellowship in Berlin, they'd have to learn German. And I don't mean a few phrases, I mean learn it at a level to work professionally. Not a workable plan.
And this is true, not just in academic research, but in business too. I knew people working in corporate Amsterdam who had previous assignments all over the world. For example, and I'm talking about just one of them, who had previously been working in Dubai, Singapore, and Munich. What is the language that has been a business necessity for them all those places? English.
And there does, like many things in life, seem to be a socio-economic, educational class component to the issue. In Amsterdam, if we apologetically asked someone if they spoke English (we thought we were being polite), they looked almost insulted. We quickly came to realize that especially among a) the young and/or b) the highly educated there, it was sort of like asking them if they knew how to read. So we stopped asking. ;->
I agree with your points. Fits our experience exactly.
Last year DH and I lived in Amsterdam (we're from the US). He is a scientist/professor who was there for a year doing research at a major university medical center in Amsterdam.
There were people in his lab from the Netherlands, of course, but also from Russia, China, Croatia, France, Germany, Italy, Greece, and other countries. When they needed to talk to each other, they spoke English. All the seminars at the medical center are delivered in English. (As a side note, and I've told this story before, DH said his only trouble understanding anyone was his inability to decipher the utterances of the Scottish guy in his lab.)
When you deal with a multi-national work force (and I don't mean from two or three countries, I mean from 20), there has to be a lingua franca. And in our experience, in Europe, English is it.
I've also commented on this before, but I think some of us well-meaning Americans try so hard to not be "ugly Americans", that we feel somehow guilty that our language has become the lingua franca - so we are loath to recognize and admit it. It seems unfair somehow that we get off so easily in the language-learning necessities. But that doesn't change the facts on the ground.
I sometimes get the idea that people think they are being enlightened and sophisticated when they insist that everyone should conduct business in the language of the country they are in. Pardon me, and I know their intentions are the best, but I think they are really displaying a sort of lack of current experience. As someone said above, that approach is fine for people going to a couple of countries on a tourist basis, but for someone working internationally either in many different countries or with people from many different countries, it is just silly.
If the Russian and Chinese (for example) scientists in DH's lab in Amsterdam had had to learn Dutch fluently enough to discuss molecular biology and virology in it, very little of their real work would have gotten done. And then a few years later, when they were doing a stint at the Pasteur institute, they would have had to learn French. And then when they went to do a fellowship in Berlin, they'd have to learn German. And I don't mean a few phrases, I mean learn it at a level to work professionally. Not a workable plan.
And this is true, not just in academic research, but in business too. I knew people working in corporate Amsterdam who had previous assignments all over the world. For example, and I'm talking about just one of them, who had previously been working in Dubai, Singapore, and Munich. What is the language that has been a business necessity for them all those places? English.
And there does, like many things in life, seem to be a socio-economic, educational class component to the issue. In Amsterdam, if we apologetically asked someone if they spoke English (we thought we were being polite), they looked almost insulted. We quickly came to realize that especially among a) the young and/or b) the highly educated there, it was sort of like asking them if they knew how to read. So we stopped asking. ;->
May 30th, 2010, 10:34 AM
#91
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL!
Like the British Empire never existed and everyone speaks "American".
Still a colony is seems, but what a self confidence they have
.
Better stop the oil spill now, dream about world dominance later.
Like the British Empire never existed and everyone speaks "American".
Still a colony is seems, but what a self confidence they have
.Better stop the oil spill now, dream about world dominance later.
May 30th, 2010, 10:57 AM
#93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
st. cirq - but the conversation, as most conversations do, had broadened somewhat from the OP, and many subsequent posts dealt with whether English was a lingua franca in Europe or not. And actually I do think it is related, not too tangentially to the OP. His/her point was, I believe, that it was somewhat odd for no one in a tourist office in a major tourist hub in Italy to not speak English. If you accept that English is the lingua franca of Europe, then the question was a quite valid one, IMO.
May 30th, 2010, 10:59 AM
#94
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Uh, evidently I don't speak English too well myself. Got tangled up in double negatives. What I meant of course was that the OP thought it was odd for no one in a major tourist office to speak English.
May 30th, 2010, 11:03 AM
#95
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sarkozy does not speak English.
That being said, international business does require a common language, and this is currently English. At some point, Mandarin will probably rise in importance
But, should every little shop owner and waiter speak English? Is it an advantage, sure. But should it be expected?
I live in Canada. In areas of our country, you will be served in French, and you will find people who do not/will not speak English.
In some instances it is based on the fact that there are areas where the overwhelming majority of customers are french, and in other cases then there is a political statement by some who do not want to anglicize their culture and insist on operating in french even if they might understand english.
Quebec is very sensistive to having english spoken and taught everywhere. It is seen as a potential threat to the continuation of the french experience while surrounded by an overwhelming english majority. Business here is a balancing act between "going english" and keeping the language alive.
Personally, I don't find it outrageous that Italians aren't fully bilingual. Should some jobs require it, sure. But if the pay and education system don't encourage it...you get what you promote.
I like the idea of Swiss learning the multiple languages of their country.
That being said, international business does require a common language, and this is currently English. At some point, Mandarin will probably rise in importance
But, should every little shop owner and waiter speak English? Is it an advantage, sure. But should it be expected?
I live in Canada. In areas of our country, you will be served in French, and you will find people who do not/will not speak English.
In some instances it is based on the fact that there are areas where the overwhelming majority of customers are french, and in other cases then there is a political statement by some who do not want to anglicize their culture and insist on operating in french even if they might understand english.
Quebec is very sensistive to having english spoken and taught everywhere. It is seen as a potential threat to the continuation of the french experience while surrounded by an overwhelming english majority. Business here is a balancing act between "going english" and keeping the language alive.
Personally, I don't find it outrageous that Italians aren't fully bilingual. Should some jobs require it, sure. But if the pay and education system don't encourage it...you get what you promote.
I like the idea of Swiss learning the multiple languages of their country.
May 30th, 2010, 11:03 AM
#96
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>I don't think anyone would argue that English isn't essential for the business and academic worlds, but that doesn't have anything to do with what the OP was talking about.</i>
How do you divorce the two? If it is essential for the business and academic worlds, then you would think that there should be some level of knowledge in society as a whole. A Dutchman (or a Dane or a Swede) is shocked at the lack of English skills of Italians (and Spaniards and Frenchmen) because they can't conceive of how you are going to get on in life without it. You can't get a good job and you can't get a proper education in a place like the Netherlands without speaking English.
How do you divorce the two? If it is essential for the business and academic worlds, then you would think that there should be some level of knowledge in society as a whole. A Dutchman (or a Dane or a Swede) is shocked at the lack of English skills of Italians (and Spaniards and Frenchmen) because they can't conceive of how you are going to get on in life without it. You can't get a good job and you can't get a proper education in a place like the Netherlands without speaking English.
May 30th, 2010, 11:11 AM
#97
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,778
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>I like the idea of Swiss learning the multiple languages of their country.</i>
They don't really, and the divide. Even in the past, many Swiss did not speak Italian, and very few speak Romansh.
They don't really, and the divide. Even in the past, many Swiss did not speak Italian, and very few speak Romansh.
May 30th, 2010, 11:13 AM
#99
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
michel-paris - but I don't think anyone was saying "every little shopkeeper and waiter" should speak English. They were saying they would think that there would be one person who speaks English in a tourist office in a major tourist center. Quite a different thing I believe.
May 30th, 2010, 11:19 AM
#100
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NorCalif...i completely agree with you and your experience mirrors mine. while well meaning, many of the attitudes expressed here are naive and from tourists who never did serious global business nor do they have much real experience with how people really connect today. they come to places like france and (however well meaning) embrace the 'precious' local culture...completely ignorant of how young french and others connect with the world. they love images of us europeans carrying baskets to buy our day's vegetables and fresh fish.
and i agree that they stem from a feeling that to acknowledge the importance and dominance of english is somehow 'ugly american'. very well said. frankly i'm always shocked at how little even self styled 'enlightened' people understand about the real world. and if anything is 'ugly american', it is the assumption that english is all about america (even if that makes it somehow shameful). it ain't. everyone understands that the dominance of english had a lot to do with american movies and general world dominance of business and culture but english as a world language now has taken on a life of its own and has little to do with america. the globalised world needs a common language and whether you like it or not, that language is english. the truth is that in this age, the institutions of europe could not function without english and would whither and die. the separate provincial european language system was ok 100 years ago but not today.
and i agree that they stem from a feeling that to acknowledge the importance and dominance of english is somehow 'ugly american'. very well said. frankly i'm always shocked at how little even self styled 'enlightened' people understand about the real world. and if anything is 'ugly american', it is the assumption that english is all about america (even if that makes it somehow shameful). it ain't. everyone understands that the dominance of english had a lot to do with american movies and general world dominance of business and culture but english as a world language now has taken on a life of its own and has little to do with america. the globalised world needs a common language and whether you like it or not, that language is english. the truth is that in this age, the institutions of europe could not function without english and would whither and die. the separate provincial european language system was ok 100 years ago but not today.
