LoveItaly

Well I am still amused as since the Dutch couple discovered the tourist office in Como didn't speak anything but Italian why did they think that would have changed a year later? And why didn't they look up the location and how to get there on a computer? It doesn't sound to me like the Dutch couple have travelled all that much actually. Anyway, like I said previously, this is an amusing thread.

colduphere

And why don't they speak more French in the US? With so many french speaking Canadians going south in the US, it would be nice if we could order our fries in French. But noooooo, we have to say everything in English.

Maybe we will just stay home and freeze our arses off in the winter. And enjoy our frites ordered in francais.

Jean

Apparently, Love, logic is not one of their strong points.

I understand all the arguments about tourist office personnel speaking the most common language of their likely visitors, but I never go anywhere in a foreign country assuming there will be an English-speaking person available at the moment I need one. I figure the communication burden is on me. If I want someone available for my translation needs at all times, I'd take an organized tour.

Pvoyageuse

"so you should seek to meet the needs of the most tourists that you can. English does that better than any other second language."

Depends where you live. I live near the Spanish border and there are more people speaking Spanish and Catalan than English in tourism offices and elsewhere. Same with Strasbourg and German or Nice and Italian.
In France, English is not necessarily the first foreign language kids learn in school especially in border areas.
There are very few job opportunities here for English-speaking people.

adrienne

One time I was taking a flight out of Newark, NJ airport to Florida and from the time I entered the terminal to the time I entered the plane I didn't understand a word anyone said to me. I have no idea what language anyone was speaking but it wasn't English!

So if people in the US dealing with the public can't speak English how can we expect the Italians to do so?

danon

..but the notion of "learn a bit of a language" is fine for the once-a-year traveler, but not for the real global traveler"

True. Although I can manage "travel conversation" and more in five languages, it is not easy to learn "a bit" each time one visits a new destination( try Basque!).
When I was going to Prague and Germany last year, I did learn some Czech ( it is similar to another Slavic language I speak), but German was no go passed " Good day, Thank you and My bill, please."
Next year we'll be traveling to Greece and Turkey... I hope
English is spoken widely!

LSky

"Perhaps I should ask Fodorites - how many of you are reasonably proficient in Italian? Let's be realistic - "

Okay let's be realistic. As I said earlier, these people were not just beamed down by the Starship Interprise. They had planned a trip to Italy for a specific reason, you'd think they could take the time it took to post about it to learn a simple phrase.

LSky

Maybe the people at the TI did speak some English but just didn't want to bother with these two.

colduphere

I can say cafe Americana and quonto costa, and that's about it. And per favoure, or is that Spanish? We were there for three weeks last year. Had a ball.

StCirq

Let's face it, those Dutch folks were utter idiots.

And FWIW, I NEVER expect ANYONE to speak English ANYWHERE I travel. Yes, it's helpful if they do in a country where I'm clueless about the language. But expect it? No. No more than I expect them to serve me American food. Why travel if you expect major cultural norms like your own language to be accessible to you everywhere you go? Defeats the purpose.

And to answer your question about who's learned Italian, I studied it for 8 years, precisely because I knew I was going to want to travel a lot in that country. I also studied 6 other languages, and achieved a level of proficiency ranging from abysmal to fluent. I know this is not a reasonable course of action for most people, but I realized early on that I was going to spend a great deal of my life traveling and it was pretty darn obvious that speaking other languages was going to make that a lot easier. And this was well before the internet.

That Dutch couple should be made to swallow a thousand raw herrings in the next ten minutes. What dunces! They have a whole year and can't figure out where they're going? Un-effing-believable. Who cares if anyone spoke English to them or not? Given their level of idiocy, I doubt crossing any language barrier would have made a jot of difference.

nicbur

--As far as speaking foreign languages is concerned I always try but many English and Americans cannot or will not partly because English has become the world's lingua franca and is thus used by other tourists - Japanese, Russians etc (who are also frequent visitors to Como).--

--The point is that not everyone in the world (including others above) is computer literate and will use Google, Fodors forums and other sites to research and solve their travel problems.--

Well nochblad, I'm sure it's all been said already but this is really sad to me. Not every tourist in the world is defaulting to English for crying out loud and, in regards to your comment about everyone not being computer literate...HELLO! If in the year 2010 you are okay with ppl who can't do an internet search why are you not okay with ppl who can't speak English? Tell me, where in your constitution, or rule book, or Bible, or whatever, does it say that English is the end all be all language...even in a tourist office? You have no idea how affected you have been by colonialism and the ignorance of a false sense of superiority. However, we all make mistakes, even grave ones like this, so I hope everyone's comments have been a humbling experience for you and I sincerely hope you grow from this. Good luck and happy travels.

danon

"You have no idea how affected you have been by colonialism and the ignorance of a false sense of superiority. However, we all make mistakes, even grave ones like this, so I hope everyone's comments have been a humbling experience for you and I sincerely hope you grow from this. "

Please tell us you are not serious.

travelgourmet

<i>I NEVER expect ANYONE to speak English ANYWHERE I travel.</i>

I do. Whenever I go to The Netherlands, Scandinavia, Greece, Thailand, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, the Baltics, Egypt, tourist Cambodia, Quebec, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Bali, and any English-speaking country, I assume English will be relatively widely spoken, because it is. Haven't been to Turkey or the Philippines, yet, but I would assume the same there. Heck, even in Italy, France, and Spain, I count on maybe 25% of the people I encounter speaking English. I'm sure there are more. I'm not going to throw a fit if someone doesn't speak English, but that doesn't mean that it isn't widely spoken and that it is relatively reasonable to assume that you can get by with just English.

<i>And why don't they speak more French in the US?</i>

Because Spanish is a more important language and has eclipsed French as the primary second language taught in schools in pretty much every state. French might still be the norm in Louisiana, but that would be about it, I would think.

Cowboy1968

I wonder how many tourists start to learn Latin when they plan to visit the Vatican.

We have 500 million people in the EU alone, with 23 recognized official languages, and 3 official "working languages".

But my experiences from growing up, living, and travelling in Europe the past 42 years, and working for a company that has subsidiaries in 14 European countries:
English is the lingua franca. Period.

There are a few regions where another language may be of more or equal use, i.e. in Catalonia where French is also widely spoken (due to the closer proximity of Catalan to French then Castellano to French). Or in the Saar region of Germany where you will find bi-lingual signs in German/French. Or Hungary, where you find many people speaking German.

Proficiency in a foreign language usually also differs between age groups. Older folks often had schooling that put no big emphasis on (modern) languages. And they lived during times when travelling and exposure to other languages was not so much the norm as today.

But if I met a European in the 20-30yo age group who was not able to have a very basic conversation in English, I'd simply take it as an example of poor education.

Yes, I do expect every European under the age of 30 or 40 to be able to speak basic English. As much as I expect him to know what 10 percent of 120 are.
I understand that someone who likes to travel to a specific country will want to learn that language to get along easier. That's why I can speak Spanish, but not Italian. And you may pick up other languages easier when you are exposed to it more often than once in three years on your Grand Tour through Europe. That's why I can read Catalan, and read and understand Dutch/Flemish.

But in the end, English is the only true bridge between the aforementioned 23 languages we speak here. Like it or not.

sashh

<<and why the assumption that all the non-italian-speaking tourists are going to speak english?

Because the odds say that more of them will speak English than any other language. Any attempt to meet the needs of every tourist will be doomed to failure, so you should seek to meet the needs of the most tourists that you can. English does that better than any other second language.>>

NO not true. We Europeans travel within Europe quite a lot.In northern Italy German is widely understood because the nearest neighbours to the Italians speak German. The TV stations available are in Italian,German and French with possibly a news channel in English.

It is more use to the locals to learn the language of their neighbours.

The poster that mentioned the shop workers speaking Japanese - if I was in a major tourist area I'd probably be able to sell a scarf or or a souvenir in several languages, I probably could not converse more than that.

And exactly how difficult is it to say Dove (sorry can't do the accent on the e)and the name of the place?

walkinaround

>>>>>>
And FWIW, I NEVER expect ANYONE to speak English ANYWHERE I travel. Yes, it's helpful if they do in a country where I'm clueless about the language. But expect it? No. No more than I expect them to serve me American food. Why travel if you expect major cultural norms like your own language to be accessible to you everywhere you go? Defeats the purpose.
>>>>>>

it's not about expecting someone to know YOUR OWN language it's about expecting europeans employed in tourism (or any non-provincial industry) in 2010 to speak english!

equating an expectation that someone working in tourism in europe in 2010 would know english with expecting american food in every restaurant shows a gross misunderstanding of language use in europe.

perhaps because you studied many languages (and that's a good thing) you don't like and refuse to accept that english IS the language of europe. perhaps you want europe to remain a disney-ish, exotic location where you can go to practice your languages and feel like you are somewhere more different from home. this might be nice for europhiles but it also means that we can't communicate with each other, do business, etc. why do you want to keep us in the dark ages? europe is not here so that you can indulge in your love of an antiquated view of 'european culture' when you visit occasionally.

it's very simple and amazing that someone who supposedly travels so much can't seem to understand...europeans for the most part learn their local language and learn english so we can participate in and protect the future of our own cultures AND can communicate with people outside of our relatively small countries.

cowboy is right....a european under 30 or 40+ who can't even speak english is poorly educated and provincial....and certainly should choose a profession other than tourism, business, medicine, science, law, etc. you can also forget about using a good part of the internet (called the WWW because it enables you to communicate OUTSIDE of your own little country). maybe knowing only the local language is ok if you want to just deliver cheese in a small village that's cut off from the outside world and you have no aspirations to ever communicate with any foreigners (e.g. on the internet)....this level of isolation is certainly not my idea of the present or the future of the world.

Hooameye

"
Well nochblad, I'm sure it's all been said already but this is really sad to me. Not every tourist in the world is defaulting to English for crying out loud and, in regards to your comment about everyone not being computer literate...HELLO! If in the year 2010 you are okay with ppl who can't do an internet search why are you not okay with ppl who can't speak English? Tell me, where in your constitution, or rule book, or Bible, or whatever, does it say that English is the end all be all language...even in a tourist office? You have no idea how affected you have been by colonialism and the ignorance of a false sense of superiority."

Well, as I said in my first post, I was expecting one of these.

Nochblad, I applaud you for posting on this subject BUT what chance have we got of finding English speakers in tourist offices when I couldn't get to speak to one on the phone in the London Hertz office that I have to phone when I return a hire car to work after hours (special arrangement).

Pvoyageuse

"a european under 30 or 40+ who can't even speak english is poorly educated and provincial...."

So just because you are not gifted in languages you should stick to delivering cheese in your own village? What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?
Being able to speak a language fluently is not given to everybody. Fluency is being able to express yourself without having to painfully translate word after word in your head before you can open your mouth. Usually it is achieved after a long stay in the country. Lots of people do not have this opportunity in their life.

nochblad

Perhaps it was a mistake to open this posting with the story of the Dutch couple as so many went off on a tangent although I may try to get further details of the story to satisfy their curiosity.

The issue properly is whether a tourist office in a major international tourist destination such as Como and its lake should have sufficient staff able to converse in a number of foreign languages - at least in English and German as far as Como is concerned. As the office is there to PROMOTE tourism I believe so.

Any Italian business trying to develop sales with foreign businesses would normally evaluate language skills in its overseas sales staff with English normally a prerequisite. German is also widely known as Germany is Italy's biggest export market. The hotels have language capabilities - why not the tourist office?

travelgourmet

<i>So just because you are not gifted in languages you should stick to delivering cheese in your own village?</i>

It isn't a question of "should", it is a question of what opportunities will be available in a global economy to someone that can't speak English.

<i>What if you were born in Paris and are a math genius?</i>

Well, math is sort of its own language, but certainly it would dramatically hamper your career and education if you can't speak English, as much of the academic literature will be in English. Indeed, I would say that serious academic study requires English language skills beyond what would be required to be a successful business person.