Robespierre

Incidentally, there's no such thing as a "native American." The people living here when the Europeans arrived came from Asia ~25,000 years ago. And the roots of those people were in Africa.

Wednesday

huh...Then there's no such thing as "American", even if I was born here but my family came from Scotland 100 years ago, does that make me Scottish or American ? Or because they too where all descended from Africa thousands of years before that, are we all African ? If they were born in the land called "America" then they are called Native Americans because they were living there when the settlers encountered them, we can all be tracked to someplace else thousands of years ago....If we are all descended from the same place then why are we arguing about being so different ?

flanneruk

Several things are far, far more distresing than hansikday's gibberish.

The attempt by so many people to prevent him uttering it. The way that so many people put him in the morally ascendant position by just caricaturing his argument. And the junk-thought non-argument that "this is a travel forum" (do the people using this to avoid engaging their few little grey cells have no interest in London's Indian food and temples, in the Christian and Islamic sights of Istanbul, in Cairo's Coptic tradition or in things as simple as bhangra or balti?)

Europe is what it is because of its demography. That demography's changing. That will - as Hansikday hints at - make Europe a more interesting place for some (like almost all of who live here), and less interesting for others.

Though, frankly my dears, the argument that it might deter tourists is one about which none of us give a damn.

hansikday

flanerrk, I used to think you had some education and were perhaps a clerk in a law or shipping firm. But after you so quickly dismissed my posts, I'm forced to reconsider.

Do all Brits immediately label anything they disagree with gibberish?
And I wonder if you might not be native born and perhaps sensitive and not totally objective?

And do you speak for all Europeans when you make the assertion that europe will be a much more interesting place for the majority of Europeans? Which majorityy are you talking about?

Robespierre

I agree completely, Wednesday.

Whether one accepts the Judeo-Christian creation myth or the latest anthropological findings from places like Olduvai Gorge, it should be obvious that every <i>homo sapiens</i> is the blood kin of every other. It's a wonder we don't get along any better than we do. (Of course, there's Cain and Abel...)

<i><b>Alle Menschen werden Br&uuml;der.</b></i>

Michael

When looking at the changes that occured in Europe between 1904 and 1954, or even between 1954 and 2004, I can't begin to guess what the detours of history will bring.

Wednesday

Thanks Robespierre...I have just always found is so ironic that the basic premis of religion (at least this is what it appears to be to me)is ultimately the belief in a higher power, human, spirit, etc. and we are all human...so essentially we are all the same doing the same thing and still continue to slaughter each other because we all do it in a different way...so it goes on forever that way..I'll never understand.

indie

well some people declare themselves as &quot;sapiens sapiens&quot; presumably not any kin to the rest of us

uuhhhh

i'm not sure of your point, Robespierre, but i do espouse the creationist theory. regardless, by definition, anyone born in america is a native american.

hansikday, religious fundamentalism aside, demography of europe (and the us) will continue to change until economics dictate otherwise. that may require huge sacrifice/compromise for nations/unions that currently hold disproportionate wealth and power. or, with the outsourcing of living wage jobs in exchange for low wage service jobs, it may be happening in front of our eyes.

whether europe or the us, if the goal is to preserve culture and way of life, robin williams's plan just might be the best.

degas

I'm still wondering if they will ban beer and wine in europe. Dry countries are no fun.

Neil_Oz

There was a time in Australia when it was feared that Irish Catholics would not assimilate and further were engaged in a plot to outbreed the rest of us and place us all under the ron hand of Papal subjugation. And looking over the fence at our neighbours' increasing brood it was easy to beieve my grandmother's dire warnings. Eventually, though, Catholics took to contraception with enthusiasm, reason prevailed on both sides, and now we worry about other, later arrivals like ... yes, &quot;unassimilated&quot; Middle Eastern Muslims.

Recent events have made it difficult to have a sensible debate about it. On the one hand we have fear and loathing being whipped up by right-wing &quot;shock jocks&quot;, on the other well-meaning but foolish pressure to avoid any public analysis for fear of stoking the fires of prejudice. The same pressures stifle public debate about criminal activity within particular ethnic groups. As a result much of the mug public, deprived of actual information, associates young Lebanese Muslim men with gang rape (because of a few high-visibility cases) and our Vietnamese community with heroin trafficking (ditto). Needless to say, the great majority of both communities are perfectly law-abiding.

So I don't actually object to hansikday raising these questions. I suspect that he's being accused of racism and xenophobia not because of what he said but because he's hansikday. I will say that the sight of young French Muslims
booing the &quot;Marsellaise&quot; during a France-Algeria soccer match suggests that there's nothing to be gained by sweeping discussion under the table.

hansikday

OZ, your very logical and even-handed, comments have left me ALMOST speechless.

It is interesting to see how &quot;old sins&quot; are never really forgotten, even by supposedly mature, open-minded people.

PalQ

According to the NYTimes article on Dutch problem only 20% of Muslim immigrants are religious - not all immigrants are the types you're afraid of but hard-working folks doing jobs no one else will. Who'll clean the Dutch toilets if there are no cheap labor from immigrants - don't see the Dutch getting their hands dirty. Seems the original post to me is racist or at least showing a severe lack of understanding of factors that go into creating fanatical Muslims anywhere - that's what you should be changing, starting with the foreign policy of the US of A!

Mucky

I think that the muslim issue is a real one, not because I am racist or anything like that but because I am a realist.
Europe will no doubt in 50 years be an even more hugely multi cultural society with all the tension that goes along with that.
I suspect that any war that we fight between now and then will mean little if anything to the safety of humanity and greed, politics and money will be more devastating than they are now.

I can only hope that in the next 50 years we can become more tollerant to each other but as I will be 92 years old then I probably won't give a toss anyway.

Muck

hansikday

PalQ, I don't buy the hollow argument that american foreign policy is to blame for terrorism. You have to look at poverty, lack of education, failure to blend into society, and extreme beliefs.

Why do you think my original question is racist?

travelwoman

Hansikday, You promised me that you would behave!! You are one fisty scalleywag!!

Robespierre

Then please try responding to Osama's lemma: if U.S. foreign policy is irrelevant, why did the <i>jihadists</i> attack us and not Sweden?

hansikday

Robe, the US represents the pinnacle of the free world and is the sole remaining world super power. Attacking it is symbolic and will have a much greater impact than attacking poor little Sweden which has a small poulation and very little military or political power.

OBL may yak on by saying he ordered 9/11 due to our foreign policy, especially our apparent favoritism towards Israel, but it's really about his insane view that Westerners are morally corrupt and must be killed to &quot;purify&quot; the world.

He wants to drive a wedge between the western powers by making the small nations think that being passive provides protection. Its really Madrid again without the bombs. Do what I say and you will not get hurt. Right - not!

Robespierre

Oh, really? If it were &quot;really about his insane view that Westerners are morally corrupt and must be killed to 'purify' the world,&quot; then why didn't he just say <u>that</u>, instead of all that carp about about our foreign policy, specifically our unilateral support of Israel? Tell me more.

Jolie

If the question is whether immigration can eventually lead to the downfall and near disappearance of local cultures and ethnicities, then I believe the answer is &quot;yes.&quot; The european immigrants to America did just that to the Native Americans.

If the question is whether the current occupants of any nation (including the non-natives such as myself, whose family were immigrants only two generations ago) should restrict others from following in my ancestor's footsteps, that's a moral and philosophical question that I'm not smart enough to answer.