What will Europe Look Like in Fifty Years?
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:40 AM
#21
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Indie's suggestion to "assimilate Muslims into the mainstream" is an excellent suggestion, but easier said than done---especially when in the U.S. the rampant immigration brings many, many more than can be "assimilated." Besides, by definition the word assimilation implies that those who arrive will become part of the basic culture, perhaps changing it a bit, but not converting it into their own culture. With the spread of Muslims throughout the world, and with the hard-line teachings of their spiritual leaders, you could not easily expect them to change. They want to change us if they can't eliminate us by other means.
Think that sounds radical? In a national news broadcast a couple of years ago, a prominent newsman (like a Dan Rather, but I can't remember) interviewed children at a Muslim girls' school in New York. One question he asked them was "Would you be willing to be a suicide bomber?" The answer they gave was frightening and is an indication of the Muslim philosophy. To a person, they responded that yes, indeed, they would be happy to be suicide bombers. Now, these kids, probably none of them more than 10-12 years old, didn't come up with that idea by themselves. They were taught by their parents, their school teachers, their mullahs, and their relatives, as well as by some who interpret the Koran rigidly. That's why I say there is not a very good possibility of "assimilation" of Muslims into any culture, be it European, American, Indian, or other.
Yes, there will always be a minority of Muslims who will be willing to see the world in a different light. But anyone who follows world affairs and understands the broader implications, should be able to make a reasonable forecast for the future as hansikday has done.
Think that sounds radical? In a national news broadcast a couple of years ago, a prominent newsman (like a Dan Rather, but I can't remember) interviewed children at a Muslim girls' school in New York. One question he asked them was "Would you be willing to be a suicide bomber?" The answer they gave was frightening and is an indication of the Muslim philosophy. To a person, they responded that yes, indeed, they would be happy to be suicide bombers. Now, these kids, probably none of them more than 10-12 years old, didn't come up with that idea by themselves. They were taught by their parents, their school teachers, their mullahs, and their relatives, as well as by some who interpret the Koran rigidly. That's why I say there is not a very good possibility of "assimilation" of Muslims into any culture, be it European, American, Indian, or other.
Yes, there will always be a minority of Muslims who will be willing to see the world in a different light. But anyone who follows world affairs and understands the broader implications, should be able to make a reasonable forecast for the future as hansikday has done.
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:58 AM
#23
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Walter
I agree it is hard. Remember though that people with mainstream views do not make the news, who wants to watch a muslim kid that has the same aspirations as any other kid when we would much rather scare the living daylights out of ourselves by hearing of a 12 year old girl who wants to be a suicide bomber.
Radicalism must be taken seriously, but also understand that the moderates within the religion must be won over, must have a stake in maintaining their freedoms, so that they can change the system from within or at least fight for it.
There are definitely no easy answers, but approaching this issue as a lost cause is dangerous.
I agree it is hard. Remember though that people with mainstream views do not make the news, who wants to watch a muslim kid that has the same aspirations as any other kid when we would much rather scare the living daylights out of ourselves by hearing of a 12 year old girl who wants to be a suicide bomber.
Radicalism must be taken seriously, but also understand that the moderates within the religion must be won over, must have a stake in maintaining their freedoms, so that they can change the system from within or at least fight for it.
There are definitely no easy answers, but approaching this issue as a lost cause is dangerous.
Nov 10th, 2004, 08:15 AM
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This thread got me to thinking.
Is not drinking wine and beer a European cultural value? If a radical religion takes over, and it could given the reproduction numbers)then the moral standards of the community will change and drinking could very well be banned.
I assume fashions will change along with possible bans on public display of affection, topless sunbathing, nude beaches, ..... .
Europe may end up more conservative than the USA. Would no that be so very ironic?
Is not drinking wine and beer a European cultural value? If a radical religion takes over, and it could given the reproduction numbers)then the moral standards of the community will change and drinking could very well be banned.
I assume fashions will change along with possible bans on public display of affection, topless sunbathing, nude beaches, ..... .
Europe may end up more conservative than the USA. Would no that be so very ironic?
Nov 10th, 2004, 08:28 AM
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Dr. Do_Good, very well stated! North African and West African culture is a very important part of the overall cultural mix of Paris - I couldn't imagine the city without it. Or imagine London without its amazing multicultural mix - it's become a part of the city and one of the things that keeps it vital.
I totally agree that some of these people who say they don't want Muslim culture in Paris do want some kind of romanticized, preserved version of Europe that is rapidly changing. But change is a natural part of the evolution of any country. If birth rates in EU countries are low, then immigration helps prevent those countries from dying altogether.
Change is inevitable and unstoppable. People can accept it or choose to resist it, and you know what the consequences of the latter always are.
I totally agree that some of these people who say they don't want Muslim culture in Paris do want some kind of romanticized, preserved version of Europe that is rapidly changing. But change is a natural part of the evolution of any country. If birth rates in EU countries are low, then immigration helps prevent those countries from dying altogether.
Change is inevitable and unstoppable. People can accept it or choose to resist it, and you know what the consequences of the latter always are.
Nov 10th, 2004, 08:36 AM
#26
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The core question is: will immigrants be Muslims in Europe or European Muslims? The latter is clearly preferable from many perspectives.
Muslims in Europe have to want to become European Muslims. And the nations of europe have to also be willing and facility this process.
I've read that twenty years ago, there were much less Muslims in France, and they were doing their best to become French Muslims. That is not the case anymore.
Muslims in France now are regarded with fear and suspicion because many young Muslims choose to live a thug life (fifty per cent of the inmates in the French jails are Muslim).
The young Muslims that do not choose to live a thug life consider themselves members of the Arab-Muslim community more than they consider themselves as French citizens.
Five million muslims live in france. Non-muslim french people are getting older while muslims make up a larger and larger percentage of the youth in france. You can do the math and see where all this is heading.
Muslims in Europe have to want to become European Muslims. And the nations of europe have to also be willing and facility this process.
I've read that twenty years ago, there were much less Muslims in France, and they were doing their best to become French Muslims. That is not the case anymore.
Muslims in France now are regarded with fear and suspicion because many young Muslims choose to live a thug life (fifty per cent of the inmates in the French jails are Muslim).
The young Muslims that do not choose to live a thug life consider themselves members of the Arab-Muslim community more than they consider themselves as French citizens.
Five million muslims live in france. Non-muslim french people are getting older while muslims make up a larger and larger percentage of the youth in france. You can do the math and see where all this is heading.
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:02 AM
#27
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My two cents. Europe will look pretty much in 50 years as it does now -- only more so. An abundance of big-box stores on the fringes of metro areas. Consumerism will explode. Wal-Marts and IKEAs and Carrefours. Highways and byways choked with cars, perhaps powered more by compressed natural gas than by gasoline. The continent (including Britain) wil become a less-attractive, less-exotic place.
Stricter immigration rules except when the aging populations need to import guest workers.
An erosion of church membership except in Italy and Greece and Spain.
Greater emphasis on attracting tourism to eastern Europe where prices will remain lower than in the west. Russia will become the energy powerhouse, supplying enormous amounts of oil and natural gas, especially from the area east of the Urals.
Unfortunately, the importation of labor will cause a reliance on north African and Middle Eastern sources. We see a lot of this, for examples, in the Netherlands (from Morroco) and France (from Algeria and Tunisia). Pockets of poverty will expand among these populations in western European urban areas. This poverty problem will cause a lot of political heat and need for western European governments to work out friendlier relations with these Moslem homelands. This need is already very apparent.
The EU will expand to include many nations not now within its bounds, and there will be a move to encourage dual semi-citizenship (especially for children born in the EU) among countries that supply these guest workers.
As the old Chinese saying goes (and will become more apparently true): may you live in interesting times.
I am reminded that a Muslim army banged on the gates of Vienna in 1683 and was sent packing back to Turkey by the timely intervention of the Poles. The need to build relations, east and west, has never been more apparent. I only wish that America could take a longer, more historical view of developments. As one observer said: God has a tender spot in his heart for drunks, children, and the United States of America. In the context of the next 50 years, we will need all the smiles we can get!
Stricter immigration rules except when the aging populations need to import guest workers.
An erosion of church membership except in Italy and Greece and Spain.
Greater emphasis on attracting tourism to eastern Europe where prices will remain lower than in the west. Russia will become the energy powerhouse, supplying enormous amounts of oil and natural gas, especially from the area east of the Urals.
Unfortunately, the importation of labor will cause a reliance on north African and Middle Eastern sources. We see a lot of this, for examples, in the Netherlands (from Morroco) and France (from Algeria and Tunisia). Pockets of poverty will expand among these populations in western European urban areas. This poverty problem will cause a lot of political heat and need for western European governments to work out friendlier relations with these Moslem homelands. This need is already very apparent.
The EU will expand to include many nations not now within its bounds, and there will be a move to encourage dual semi-citizenship (especially for children born in the EU) among countries that supply these guest workers.
As the old Chinese saying goes (and will become more apparently true): may you live in interesting times.
I am reminded that a Muslim army banged on the gates of Vienna in 1683 and was sent packing back to Turkey by the timely intervention of the Poles. The need to build relations, east and west, has never been more apparent. I only wish that America could take a longer, more historical view of developments. As one observer said: God has a tender spot in his heart for drunks, children, and the United States of America. In the context of the next 50 years, we will need all the smiles we can get!
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:05 AM
#28
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Dear haniksday
While I do see some of the points you make, your posts come across as more than a little paranoid.
Just as a very small example and one close to home for me since I lived in Texas for 23 years, has the flood of Mexican immigrants (many of whome do not ever learn English or assimilate in other ways) significantly changed the culture of of Texas (the old west, etc.)? Not really. They have just added another dimension to it. An interesting and tasty (I love fresh mexican food from the mercados in south Texas) one at that
While I do see some of the points you make, your posts come across as more than a little paranoid.
Just as a very small example and one close to home for me since I lived in Texas for 23 years, has the flood of Mexican immigrants (many of whome do not ever learn English or assimilate in other ways) significantly changed the culture of of Texas (the old west, etc.)? Not really. They have just added another dimension to it. An interesting and tasty (I love fresh mexican food from the mercados in south Texas) one at that
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:16 AM
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..This has always confused me and I apologize as it may seem like a dumb question...It seems that the labels of your nationality, family heritage, and religion seems to blur depending on what it is...Even if a Muslim or Jewish practicing person is born in say for example Australia, are they referred to as Australian or Muslim ? Why or Why not ? Why are some religions more labeled that others ? I don't hear Catholic French or Buddist Japanese...but I hear "Muslim" or "Jewish" which to me tells me what they beleive in but not where they are from or their nationality. Why are some religions so much more defined and worried about than others to the point of where someone is from becoming irrelevant ? I am not a religious person so I apologize for my ignorance...I was just curious...
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:19 AM
#30
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TexasAggie, I'm not sure how you define being paranoid.
I stated some basic facts and listed some valid concerns that clearly millions of europeans have thought about and expressed in the recent past.
My concern on this issue was born from reading articles in the european press. As an aside, I had to smile when one poster said I was uninformed since americans did not have access to
European news. Hello? I watch the BBC on TV every night and use a little thing called the internet to pull up tons of articles and news stories.
Do all europeans think Americans still live like in the Wild West of 1890?
I stated some basic facts and listed some valid concerns that clearly millions of europeans have thought about and expressed in the recent past.
My concern on this issue was born from reading articles in the european press. As an aside, I had to smile when one poster said I was uninformed since americans did not have access to
European news. Hello? I watch the BBC on TV every night and use a little thing called the internet to pull up tons of articles and news stories.
Do all europeans think Americans still live like in the Wild West of 1890?
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:29 AM
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Haniksday,
Good grief, way to purposefully misunderstand my little example. I did not imply that the entire rest of the world believes all Americans (or even all Texans) still live as if it were 1890. Incidentally, I was asked in Kenya if I rode horses to school, LOL ;-) So I guess the "Wild West" image does still exist in some parts of the world!
In any case, pray continue on with your worrying and fretting if you wish --I will waste no more of your time offering a differing opinion or personal example.
Good grief, way to purposefully misunderstand my little example. I did not imply that the entire rest of the world believes all Americans (or even all Texans) still live as if it were 1890. Incidentally, I was asked in Kenya if I rode horses to school, LOL ;-) So I guess the "Wild West" image does still exist in some parts of the world!
In any case, pray continue on with your worrying and fretting if you wish --I will waste no more of your time offering a differing opinion or personal example.
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:33 AM
#36
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I always like to post this for fun.
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan. What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message. Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!) I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's
one plan:
>
> 1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. We will promise never to "interfere" again.
> 2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the
fence.
> 3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they
are. France would welcome them.
> 4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation
would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself. Don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.
> 5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home, baby.
> 6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy
wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The
caribou will have to cope for a while.
> 7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.
> 8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them gets "lost" or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get very little, anyway.
> 9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good
homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
> 10) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.
> 11) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
> 12) Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.
> 13) "The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, You want a piece of me?'
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan. What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message. Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!) I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's
one plan:
>
> 1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. We will promise never to "interfere" again.
> 2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the
fence.
> 3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they
are. France would welcome them.
> 4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation
would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself. Don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.
> 5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home, baby.
> 6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy
wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The
caribou will have to cope for a while.
> 7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.
> 8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them gets "lost" or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get very little, anyway.
> 9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good
homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
> 10) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.
> 11) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
> 12) Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.
> 13) "The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, You want a piece of me?'
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:48 AM
#38
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ncgrrl, please honey, this is the internet. What is there to get upset about?
I merely stated that that I was quickly labelled a racist. I knew ahead of time the leftist would be quick to jump me and they did.
Its not like I missed lunch or my massage appointment worrying about it.
I merely stated that that I was quickly labelled a racist. I knew ahead of time the leftist would be quick to jump me and they did.
Its not like I missed lunch or my massage appointment worrying about it.
Nov 10th, 2004, 10:11 AM
#40
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hansikday, I hope Europe will not some day become the United States of Europe and adopt some bland sameness that bans unique national customs and
practices.
Yes, I guess I do want to continue to have a romantic version of Paris with its old buidings, church bells and cafe society. Sometimes change is not a good thing.
practices.
Yes, I guess I do want to continue to have a romantic version of Paris with its old buidings, church bells and cafe society. Sometimes change is not a good thing.
