More grist for the mill (milieu).
I suspect some of the higher birth rate in France (mentioned above) is due to Arabic immigrants, whose birthrate worldwide is higher than average.
The tax rate in Ireland is quite low as well.

" "Due process" and "justice" do not appear to have their place in the workplace in many people's minds. It seems that a truly efficient company must function as a dictatorship. It's very ironic, when one hears the ideals expounded by the same people, using words like "freedom"."

Good thing you left the US. In this country, "due process" is something that only applies to relations between citizens and the government. Even in my state of Texas, workers have a cause of action against their employers if they are fired for most of the causes you listed in the OP, but these are not "due process" concepts.

The bottom line is that France is being suffocated by a sense of entitlement. French workers think that they are entitled to high pay, short hours, long lunches, long vacations, and permanement employment. When you start thinking that someone owes you a living, that's when you cease being a net contributor to society.

mr_go: "Tungsten cassoulet" - LOL! Good one!

kerouac: thanks for posting a most interesting thread. I feel enlightened by this discussion. Mostly in today's world, the media does not "report" any more, it "opinionates". Or it "spins", but it does not report the facts and let the reader decide for himself/herself any more. I get so tired of watching these screaming matches on TV.

As for statistics, wasn't it Benjamin Disraeli who said something to the effectquot; There are three kinds of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics." ?

Well well... so many incomparable things to compare. That was inevitable -- as well as completely undocumented suppositions : population growth due to immigrants or heat wave deaths due to a country's decline. If I were playing by the same rules, I would mention crime rates, the wonderful reaction to Hurricane Katrina (which affects me more than most since I am from Gulfport, Mississippi), the fine quality of political analysis that was used to completely solve all problems in Iraq, or life expectancy in various countries.
However, it is clear we are now in the territory of "mine is bigger than yours" (after all, doubts were even expressed about Ariane taking off -- yes it did, and so did the A-380) and that is a game I have never played. But please feel free to pull down your zippers and show your stuff.

Mark Twain, not Disraeli.

Mark Twain was quoting Disraeli when he said that famous statistics line.

kerouac: "But please feel free to pull down your zippers and show your stuff.'

Only a sorry, low class jerk makes a crass comment like the above on a travel forum.

The quality of the interventions began dropping long before that comment. If you will refer to the original post, you will see that it was to assist visitors to France who had no idea what was going on.
But NorthShore, please identify exactly your own class, since you are able to identify the class of other people that you have never met from one sentence.

It seems that the people of France are quite dynamic and willing to defend hard-earned privileges even if some people are left by the roadside. While it is totally honourable to be in disagreement with this view, I don't really see the point of trying to impose the economic values or agenda of other countries on the French. As it is the youth who are themselves unemployed who are fighting the new law, if their preference is to continue to be unemployed until a more acceptable solution is found, I think they have a lot more of a right to voice their opinion than people from other countries who think they know better.

Well said, prolepsis.

I agree. Prolepsis hit the nail on the head.

Now, can we agree that the sentiment goes both ways? Let the French be French, but please stop bashing the U.S. for the choices we make. If we want to work longer hours to grow our economy (and feed the world, I might mention) that's our choice. It's disturbing to read so much enmity towards "employers", as if jobs are just another benefit the government is expected to deliver.

>...what is so wrong with the economy and GDP? As the 4th or 5th economy in the world with a population of only 60 million, I don't think there is any point in disparaging the economics...<

From http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0874911.html

2004 GDP GDP/capita
trillion thousand $

US 11.8 40.1
Japan 3.8 29.4
Germany 2.4 28.7
UK 1.8 29.6
France 1.7 28.7
Italy 1.6 27.7
Russia 1.4 9.8
Canada 1.0 31.5

Among the G8 (Russia is included because of political, not economic power), France is lagging in either GDP or GDP per capita.

The US, with 5 times the population has 7 times the GDP of France.

Japan has twice the population and 2.2 times the GDP

Germany has 1.3 times the population and 1.4 times the GDP.

The UK has 0.98 the population and 1.05 the GDP.

Canada has 0.54 the population and 0.59 the GDP.

Italy has 0.95 the population and 0.94 the GDP

Population figures from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0874911.html

So, France is doing slightly better than Italy.

Oh, well.

My carefully composed table got messed up.

The numbers are for 2004.

First number is GDP in trillions of USD
The second is GDP per capita in thousands USD.

Statistics are such fun.

Largest World Economies
No. Country GDP $US billions
1 USA 10,208
2 Japan 4,149
3 Germany 1,847
4 United Kingdom 1,424
5 France 1,307
6 China (exc.HK) 1,159
7 Italy 1,089
8 Canada 700
9 Mexico 618
10 Spain 582

or maybe per capita is more accurate?

#1 Luxembourg $66,463.78 per capita
#2 Norway $54,467.23 per capita
#3 Switzerland $47,999.07 per capita
#4 Ireland $45,707.17 per capita
#5 Denmark $44,742.82 per capita
#6 Iceland $41,720.45 per capita
#7 United States $39,452.74 per capita
#8 Sweden $38,480.78 per capita
#9 Japan $36,285.57 per capita
#10 Finland $35,726.02 per capita
#11 Austria $35,443.98 per capita
#12 United Kingdom $35,421.29 per capita
#13 Netherlands $35,183.76 per capita
#14 Belgium $33,754.34 per capita
#15 France $33,015.40 per capita

We can play with Google for hours but not convince anybody of anything. That's the problem with money!

My dear Kerouac,

I am pleased for you that you have a good job in apleasant country and the leisure time to enjoy it.

If I may remind you of the recent riots in the banlieus, weren't they caused by high unemployment and a feeling of hopelessness?

Kerouac-
Thank you for starting a most interesting post. Unfortunately for you, many of us disagree with your OPINIONS in your enlightenment. You've just stated again that your post was simply inform- as are many of the replies. They just so happen to have a different opinion that you do.
Please, let's keep our pants zipped and not have this tread pulled.
Editors- it's a great thread that will make many think and make their own decision regarding the issue.

I don't think that anyone is really sure what caused the car & building burnings (there was very little in the way of riots but the flames made for magnificent international media coverage) in the suburbs, because the reasons were multiple and often contradictory. Unless one wants to get more or less biblical and say that "idle hands do the devil's work," I wouldn't even put unemployment in the top 5 reasons for the incidents, but it naturally reassures elected officials to find a simplistic answer. This is called "yaka" in France ("il n'y a qu'à" -- "all you have to do is" + simplistic solution = problem solved instantly).
If one wants to give credit to the analysis of the local mayors who suffered from the incidents, most were in agreement that a reduction in public funding of youth programs was a major factor. The previous government, as unable to solve unemployment as the current one is, had pumped a lot of money into the suburbs -- for youth centers, neighborhood 'mediators,' sports programs and a lot of other things that cost a lot of money but did not seem to be profitable. Money down the drain, in other words. The next government cut off all the funding, the programs ended, and the teenagers were left with nothing to do except make trouble. And even the program to have local foot policemen who knew the neighborhoods and the residents was abandoned at the insistence of the Minister of the Interior. One of his main interests is to break all records on the number of arrests, so to have policemen who are in an area to prevent crimes before they happen is of no interest to him -- fewer arrests make him look bad. And since he wants to become president next year, it doesn't take much a stretch for those of us who are cynical to begin imagining that he is creating urban unrest on purpose for his own political advantage.
I will not deny that this is a somewhat slanted view of the situation, but as you can see, it takes a lot longer to try to start exposing some of the background of the problem than to just snap your fingers and say "they just need a job -- unemployment is the problem" (That's sort of like saying "Remove Saddam Hussein from power and all of Iraq's problems are solved" -- sorry, couldn't resist!)
In any case, unemployment has been high for many years already without all of the same problems of violence -- if there is a question to be asked, it is "why is it happening now?" when it could have been happening for the last 15 years.

Surprisingly civil -- and refreshing -- discourse.

Anyway, my two cents (or francs or euros):

Indeed, it appears to solve no problem by saying, "But what about how bad it is in (fill in the country)." Or to argue who has it "better."

I'd be careful about using the riots to say, "That shows that young people in France are angry." All it really shows is that the rioters are angry. Yes, you can say that the riots are a symptom of a larger problem, but making generalizations from them seems dangerous.

Lastly, all laws have good and bad consequences. What I'd be asking about this one is: (a) Is the goal of the law to lower unemployment? (b) Does it? To argue that the law isn't perfect creates an endless, pointless debate.

<i>&quot;why is it happening now?&quot; </i>

Uh, oh. Now you've <i>really</i> opened a can of worms!

Hi K,

&gt;In any case, unemployment has been high for many years already without all of the same problems of violence -- if there is a question to be asked, it is &quot;why is it happening now?&quot; ...

Usually, because people have lost hope in any other method.