What is Haute Cuisine ?
May 22nd, 2007, 11:23 AM
#22
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Dukey I am no expert on French cuisine but I would say that they are mutually exclusive. I do not think restaurants today want to be categorized like than anymore and certainly no one uses the "nouvelle cuisine" label anymore. But again, I am not the one to ask..
May 22nd, 2007, 12:47 PM
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Dukey..I am not sure if you are jokig or not, but I do not see any connection between haute cuisine and foam. I thought the foam craze was started by Ferran Adria (El Bulli). That kind of thing is considered molecular gastronomy, just so you can be well informed.
May 22nd, 2007, 02:15 PM
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I heard of a highly touted restraunt in Evenston, Ill that would do wierd things like put pine needles in warm water with the soup in a second bowl like a double boiler so you could have the aroma of pine while tasting the soup.
I don't know the name of the restraunt though and wonder if they still exist. Talk about experimental!
thereyet
I don't know the name of the restraunt though and wonder if they still exist. Talk about experimental!
thereyet
Jun 11th, 2007, 01:02 PM
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I'm a complete "foodie" and trust me, I've loaded my bazooka, pulled the pins on my grenades, and loaded my flamethrower =^D
The wiki definition of "Haute Cuisine" is pretty spot-on. It essentially means the type of food you'd get at a *really* high end restaurant - with the focus on quality, flavour, attention to detail (in the food, the service, and even the decor/style in the establishment itself).
Yes, the individual serving sizes tend to be very small as compared to regular dinners, however you're meant to eat several courses (I've had meals of up to 11 courses, including the cheese plate and desert) so the servings are sized so that you don't' turn into Mr. Creosote by the end of the meal (the really good restaurants change the serving sizes depending on how many courses you order...). Saying you get less food isn't true, unless you go to a "Haute Cuisine" restaurant and just order a main course. Saying that it's not worth the price (which, actually, no one has directly said) also isn't true, if you're also a foodie like me =^D
The wiki definition of "Haute Cuisine" is pretty spot-on. It essentially means the type of food you'd get at a *really* high end restaurant - with the focus on quality, flavour, attention to detail (in the food, the service, and even the decor/style in the establishment itself).
Yes, the individual serving sizes tend to be very small as compared to regular dinners, however you're meant to eat several courses (I've had meals of up to 11 courses, including the cheese plate and desert) so the servings are sized so that you don't' turn into Mr. Creosote by the end of the meal (the really good restaurants change the serving sizes depending on how many courses you order...). Saying you get less food isn't true, unless you go to a "Haute Cuisine" restaurant and just order a main course. Saying that it's not worth the price (which, actually, no one has directly said) also isn't true, if you're also a foodie like me =^D
Jun 11th, 2007, 01:28 PM
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Scott I take issue with you. Haute cuisine refers to the type of dish, not the number of courses; a series of 11 courses sounds like a tasting menu, or menu degustation, to me. A tasting menu does not have to be in a restaurant serving haute cuisine. You can have a tasting menu in a Chinese restaurant, for example.
Haute cuisine most definitely does not refer to "the food you get in a really high end restaurant." I would not take what you read on a website as an accurate definition!
If you eat in a "really high end" Italian restaurant in Rome, for example, I doubt if you would be eating what is commonly thought of as haute cuisine.
Haute cuisine most definitely does not refer to "the food you get in a really high end restaurant." I would not take what you read on a website as an accurate definition!
If you eat in a "really high end" Italian restaurant in Rome, for example, I doubt if you would be eating what is commonly thought of as haute cuisine.
Jun 11th, 2007, 01:45 PM
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ekscrunchy, I agree with Scott. Foodies know which ones the "really high end" restaurants are. They're usually the very well-known ones that cost a small fortune to eat at, like El Bulli in Barcelona, Babbo in New York, Alain Ducasse in Paris, Charlie Trotter's in Chicago, Toqué! in Montreal. Those are the ones Scott is talking about.
Jun 11th, 2007, 01:47 PM
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Adding: Scott was saying he's had 11 courses before, but not that it was the standard. I've been to such a restaurant that had a table d'hôte with 3 courses.
Also, "haute cuisine" does not refer to a type of dish, but to the type of cuisine.
Also, "haute cuisine" does not refer to a type of dish, but to the type of cuisine.
Jun 11th, 2007, 01:52 PM
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I am sorry but the food at El Bulli is not haute cuisine. I gave my own opinion on what the term means in the beginning of this thread. Charlie Trotter does not cook haute cuisine dishes! And to say that Babbo in New York is an haute cuisine restaurant is actually ridiculous.
Jun 11th, 2007, 02:00 PM
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ekscrunchy - you're right (as long as you took issue with what I said, not me personally), I may not have explained what I meant as clearly as I could have...
To quote the wiki: "Nowadays, haute cuisine is not defined by any particular style – there are haute cuisine restaurants serving fusion cuisine, regional cuisine and postmodern cuisine – but rather by careful preparations, elaborate service, critical acclaim, and, most importantly, obsessive attention to detail" which I think is a fairly accurate description - the attitude towards the quality of the food and the presentation, as opposed to the type of food or region it's from. With that definition, there's no reason than a meal in an Italian, Chinese, French, or any other regional cuisine couldn't be thought of as haute cuisine.
The 11 course meal I had was a tasting menu, that didn't make it haute cuisine, the fact that the restaurant met the above criteria did. The focus at these restaurants is on quality, not quantity (not necessarily mutually exclusive, just a focus on one rather than the other). The reason I mentioned the size of the servings is because quite a few of the posts made specific mention of it. Serving sizes, generally, should be based on the number of courses you eat. If you go to a restaurant that has a menu that's been set up for multiple courses and just order one or two, you're not going to get very much food, haute cuisine or not.
I think that what you wrote in your original post and what I was trying convey was pretty much the same thing - focus on quality and attention to detail, above all.
To quote the wiki: "Nowadays, haute cuisine is not defined by any particular style – there are haute cuisine restaurants serving fusion cuisine, regional cuisine and postmodern cuisine – but rather by careful preparations, elaborate service, critical acclaim, and, most importantly, obsessive attention to detail" which I think is a fairly accurate description - the attitude towards the quality of the food and the presentation, as opposed to the type of food or region it's from. With that definition, there's no reason than a meal in an Italian, Chinese, French, or any other regional cuisine couldn't be thought of as haute cuisine.
The 11 course meal I had was a tasting menu, that didn't make it haute cuisine, the fact that the restaurant met the above criteria did. The focus at these restaurants is on quality, not quantity (not necessarily mutually exclusive, just a focus on one rather than the other). The reason I mentioned the size of the servings is because quite a few of the posts made specific mention of it. Serving sizes, generally, should be based on the number of courses you eat. If you go to a restaurant that has a menu that's been set up for multiple courses and just order one or two, you're not going to get very much food, haute cuisine or not.
I think that what you wrote in your original post and what I was trying convey was pretty much the same thing - focus on quality and attention to detail, above all.
Jun 11th, 2007, 02:08 PM
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Well let's leave it at that..and please do not use Wikipedia as a source. For all you know, I was the one who wrote the definition! (I don't mean to be a prissy professor here although I know I sound like one..)
Jun 11th, 2007, 03:35 PM
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What is "Haute Cuisine"?
I suggest that, first there must be a "cuisine".
By that I mean a written set of principles explaining why A goes with B, but not with C.
In my own stomach, I consider that there are 3 cuisines: (a) Italian, perfected by the French, (b) Indian, and (c) Chinese. (Listed in reverse alphabetical order, so don't accuse me of Eurocentrism.)
In each of these cuisines, there are rules regarding ingredients that go into dishes, techniques of preparation of dishes, and order of service of dishes.
There are often rules regarding beverages, condiments and side dishes.
For example, would one have Beijing Duck with a hot mustard sauce? If not, why not? If so, why?
When making a masala, one can choose from a huge number of ingredients, yet the varieties are not unlimited. Why?
(I just realized that this is a European forum, and I should stick to European food.)
Why don't we serve scrambled eggs with mustard and a good dunkles beer?
Having now firmly established that a cuisine must have some set of rules to be more than just throwing whatever is available into a large, unfired clay potful of water and dropping hot rocks into it, I shall consider the concept of "haute cuisine".
Here we are talking about refinement.
Take, for example, chopped liver. My mother has made chopped liver for her family for over 60 years.
By this time, my siblings, my nieces and nephews, my children and my grandchildren think that her chopped liver is the very essence of "chopped liver". You couldn't get them to eat pate' de foie gras if you paid them.
Now, her chopped liver is good, but it ain't pdfg.
So, what makes pdfg "HC" and what my mother makes "CL"?
Consider how the animals are raised (OK, PETA people, this is just an example. I am not advocating the cruel torture of geese just to satisfy my decadent, sadistic desire for oral gratification.), how they are slaughtered, how butchered, how the liver is cooked, the herbs, the truffles, the butter, the Cognac, the seasonings.
(A really good PDFG should be put in a glazed earthenware pot, covered with at least an inch of goose fat and allowed to mellow for a year or so.)
My mother would never bother to spend so much time making chopped liver.
Next, what beverage to serve with the PDFG?
My mother would put a bottle of soda on the table, along with a bowl of ice cubes.
Others might say that such a carefully prepared dish should be accompanied by an equally good wine - say a Chateau d'Yquem.
My Mom, bless her, doesn't do HC. I'm the Black Sheep of the family, I do.
As to beet juice and foamy thingies. I hold that this is a result of chef's becoming bored making the same old same old, even if it does sell for 75E/serving.
It's similar to symphony orchestras bringing the public weird compositions by strange composers - they are bored playing the top 40.
So we get a variety of combinations; some of which are quite good and will stand the test of time, some of which appeal only to the jaded palate, some of which are simply celebrity food served in celebrity chef restos to celebrity groupies who wouldn't know a Riesling from a Chablis.
Question from the Class:
>Can nouvelle cuisine ALSO BE haute cuisine, ...<
Of course.
For Wednesday's class, I expect you to be prepared to give recipes for at least 10 ways to prepare potatoes from Escoffier's "Guide to the Fine Art of Cookery" and to discuss which main dishes they should accompany.
You may use any translation.
I suggest that, first there must be a "cuisine".
By that I mean a written set of principles explaining why A goes with B, but not with C.
In my own stomach, I consider that there are 3 cuisines: (a) Italian, perfected by the French, (b) Indian, and (c) Chinese. (Listed in reverse alphabetical order, so don't accuse me of Eurocentrism.)
In each of these cuisines, there are rules regarding ingredients that go into dishes, techniques of preparation of dishes, and order of service of dishes.
There are often rules regarding beverages, condiments and side dishes.
For example, would one have Beijing Duck with a hot mustard sauce? If not, why not? If so, why?
When making a masala, one can choose from a huge number of ingredients, yet the varieties are not unlimited. Why?
(I just realized that this is a European forum, and I should stick to European food.)
Why don't we serve scrambled eggs with mustard and a good dunkles beer?
Having now firmly established that a cuisine must have some set of rules to be more than just throwing whatever is available into a large, unfired clay potful of water and dropping hot rocks into it, I shall consider the concept of "haute cuisine".
Here we are talking about refinement.
Take, for example, chopped liver. My mother has made chopped liver for her family for over 60 years.
By this time, my siblings, my nieces and nephews, my children and my grandchildren think that her chopped liver is the very essence of "chopped liver". You couldn't get them to eat pate' de foie gras if you paid them.
Now, her chopped liver is good, but it ain't pdfg.
So, what makes pdfg "HC" and what my mother makes "CL"?
Consider how the animals are raised (OK, PETA people, this is just an example. I am not advocating the cruel torture of geese just to satisfy my decadent, sadistic desire for oral gratification.), how they are slaughtered, how butchered, how the liver is cooked, the herbs, the truffles, the butter, the Cognac, the seasonings.
(A really good PDFG should be put in a glazed earthenware pot, covered with at least an inch of goose fat and allowed to mellow for a year or so.)
My mother would never bother to spend so much time making chopped liver.
Next, what beverage to serve with the PDFG?
My mother would put a bottle of soda on the table, along with a bowl of ice cubes.
Others might say that such a carefully prepared dish should be accompanied by an equally good wine - say a Chateau d'Yquem.
My Mom, bless her, doesn't do HC. I'm the Black Sheep of the family, I do.
As to beet juice and foamy thingies. I hold that this is a result of chef's becoming bored making the same old same old, even if it does sell for 75E/serving.
It's similar to symphony orchestras bringing the public weird compositions by strange composers - they are bored playing the top 40.
So we get a variety of combinations; some of which are quite good and will stand the test of time, some of which appeal only to the jaded palate, some of which are simply celebrity food served in celebrity chef restos to celebrity groupies who wouldn't know a Riesling from a Chablis.
Question from the Class:
>Can nouvelle cuisine ALSO BE haute cuisine, ...<
Of course.
For Wednesday's class, I expect you to be prepared to give recipes for at least 10 ways to prepare potatoes from Escoffier's "Guide to the Fine Art of Cookery" and to discuss which main dishes they should accompany.
You may use any translation.
