europeanwoman

Uncle Sam: Re your point Nr. 1: What about men with beer bellies?

honey

I have a question for European men. When you see an attactive topless lady on the beach, are you more turned on than you would be if she had a top on? If not, then are breasts not sexual to you?

beaches

In my opinion, the original poster started on the wrong foot with her title: "European beaches - suitable for children?". In my book, what makes a beach suitable for children is a lack of strong ocean currents, clean sand (within reason - ie a lack of dog dirt and medical waste), and a low risk of catching dysentry or cholera from swimming. What people choose to wear, comes VERY low down my list. <BR><BR>Despite her protestations that she was not trying to apply her standards to others, her title shows that (subconsciously?) she did think that her concerns applied to children in general. But I don't suppose she wanted to write "suitable for children with narrow-minded parents".

Uncel Sam

European woman,<BR><BR>Agreed, a beer belly is agusting sight...but it may be well earned. <BR><BR>As an American I see the problem as how the beer belly was earned. If it was developed by drinking Miller Lite or American Budweiser, then it is indeed a despicable sight.<BR><BR>If, however it was developed by drinking great beers like Paulaner, Budvar, Stella Artois and Warsteiner, then it is more readily tolerated.<BR><BR>

beaches

Anyway, she should come to Britain where the sunny beaches are populated by people wearing wetsuits zippered up to the neck. Too cold to go topless!

Uncle Sam

Beahes,<BR><BR>Exactly why is that when a person has a moral opinion, or takes a moral posiiton...they are "narrow minded"?<BR><BR>Perhaps they just believe in something moral, and you do not!?

immoral

Telling other people what they HAVE to wear - - now THAT's immoral!<BR>

elina

Well, I am Finnish, and because here everybody goes to sauna, people are used to nudity from craddle till grave. Children see all kinds of people nude (also old people with bodies that have been young 70 or 80 years ago). Nudity does not have to be sexual. In fact it is a big NO NO to wear any kind of clothes in a sauna. CLOTHES ARE PROHIBITED. <BR><BR>So, it seems that there is a HUGE cultural gap between the practise here and in the USA. I can only say that children don´t get harmed by seeing naked people (not to mention innocent breasts). Otherwise every single Finn for the past 3000 years or so would have been harmed. Human body is a human body, very vulnerable and fragile when naked. Certainly nothing dirty or bad.<BR><BR>About the beaches, though. Some kind of top should be worn when people go to beach bar or a pool bar for a drink.<BR><BR>I don´t actually get this whole thing: Don´t children see their own parents naked? I mean, if they do, they are used to seeing breasts.

a

Uncle Sam, I suspect that like the original poster, you are frustrated by the lack of empathy for her, and apparently your, views. However, what goes for her detractors goes for her supporters – we all need to try and treat each other with respect, even if we can’t exactly respect the opinions being voiced.<BR><BR>What is considered ‘ladylike’ or ‘liberal’ doesn’t seem to show any logical pattern, even if we compare one period of history to the next, let alone one country to the next. Parisiens may have cheered on Josephine Baker as she danced on a mirror clad only in a simulated banana peel, but while French men were apparently quite happy to have women reveal their bodies on stage at the turn of the 20th century, they were apparently less happy to recognize said ladies’ right to reveal their political opinions at the ballot box. Whereas women in Canada garnered the vote wearing the angle length skirts, corsets, and bustles of 1917, and their American sisters, wearing almost as much won nation-wide suffrage in 1919, women in France didn’t make it to the polling booth until 1949, and whilst wearing considerably more than Ms. Baker, I might add. Which, if you try to apply logic to it, just goes to show that the more women cover up, the more liberal their society is. : - ) <BR><BR>So if we try to find logic about beliefs, it’s gonna take us to some pretty weird conclusions. Religion sometimes seems to make no more sense than fashions in clothing, but as it produces so much of that wonderful art we all troop to Europe to see, maybe we should cut it some slack.<BR><BR>To inject a little humour into all of this: I read the remark about the 13 year old and considered that taking a horny teenage boy to the beach is probably the best way to guarantee what women will wear on the Riviera. While said teenage boy is at the beach, everyone will wear beachwear that would make a Victorian lady look licentious. The minute his back is turned, six supermodels will stroll the sands wearing nothing but a smile. <BR>

clothing critic

I's rather see a woman topless, who shouldn't be, than 99.9% of the male population in a speedo. Don't the look in a mirror?

Dina

To Elina in Finland, who is puzzled:<BR>"I don´t actually get this whole thing: Don´t children see their own parents naked? I mean, if they do, they are used to seeing breasts" <BR>No, believe in or not, in the U.S. there are millions of children who've never seen their parents naked. (I've never been convinced my parents saw each other naked!) A family nude together in a sauna or pool would be considered a socially very liberal family, and many conservative Americans would disapprove.

kate

a, women don't go topless to titillate men, they do it to avoid tan straps.<BR><BR>The men know this is not for their benefit, and so don't lear. It's actually not a sexual thing at all. Surely it's more sexual to show a hint of cleavage, or a shapely bottom in tight trousers, than just stripping off?<BR><BR>Incidentally, if we don't do it in the UK, it's merely a temperature thing. Please feel free to bare your chest on Brighton Beach if you feel so incined, but be warned - you may discover the true source of our much used expression "freezing my t*ts off".<BR><BR>And to the lady off to Ireland soon, be warned that as the most Catholic country in Europe, long johns and a long-sleeved thermal vest may be appropriate.

elina

Thanks, Dina! OK, I don't understand it, but then again, I don´t have to. <BR><BR>But to "a", who wrote this: <BR>"Which, if you try to apply logic to it, just goes to show that the more women cover up, the more liberal their society is. : - )"<BR><BR>Sorry, I have to spoil that logic. ;0) Finland – whith all its age old traditions of nudity – was the first country in the world that gave women BOTH the right to vote and the right to stand for elections. And that was 1906. By 1907 there were already 19 women in the parliament (200 members).<BR><BR>The parliament also had their clothes on. Except in the parliament house sauna.

schizo

I hope the original poster is aware of the fact that almost all over Europe there are NUDIST beaches. Some are secluded, some are not!

a

Elina, I was speaking with 'tongue in cheek' about the logic business. I'm not sure how well 'tongue in cheek' translates into finnish, so when I said what I did about covering up, I knew that far from being logical, it was absurd. Meaning, sometimes the harder we look for logic, the harder it is to find. (And now I've probably really confused you, sorry. : - ) )<BR><BR>Maybe I should have kept things simple and just said that all societies are prudish about something.

a

Now, Kate, if you're from the UK then you have no excuse for not seeing that I was joking! For pity's sake, to a teenage boy, a TREE is trying to be titillating!

mimi taylor

Usually there is a long line for the ladies room at popualr events or restos, so when I coudn't wait and used the men's toilet, I was amazed at the nasty looks from the women. You would think I commited homicide. I wennt to a nude beach with a girlfriend and her lover in Provincetown at first I was nervous but I saw so many relaxed families, I soon was relaxed. So, zeka, I understand your feelings.

anon

"...2. Interesting that some attack a person's religious beliefs so quickly..."<BR><BR><BR>Interesting though how some people want to impose their specific version ( perversion) of religion or morality upon everyone. <BR><BR>

elina

"a", I understood you were speaking with "tongue in cheek". So was I. ;o)

Uncle Sam

Anon,<BR><BR>Please reread the thread.<BR><BR>Their religious beliefs were attacked...as was their moral stand.<BR><BR>You do not have to agree with their beliefs or moral position, but at the very least those staking out the more liberal positions should at least practice what you in turn expect...TOLERANCE!