Western Europe Itinerary Help
Dec 29th, 2013, 05:11 PM
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Western Europe Itinerary Help
My husband and I are headed to Europe this coming September. I would like to fly out of the US on Sept 12 and we will be heading back on Oct 1. Looking at flying into London and then heading to Paris. I would like to make it to Munich for the start of Oktoberfest on 9/20 and then see the other sights in Germany. Also toying with the idea of Prague, Salzburg, or Amsterdam. What do I have time for? What should I skip? Also would very much appreciate any thoughts on Oktoberfest (should we go for the opening ceremony or on a slower day?) and other sights to see in Germany.
Thanks for your help!!
Thanks for your help!!
Dec 29th, 2013, 07:51 PM
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O'fest is a phenomenon that I think most people either adore or detest. It means huge beer mugs but also huge crowds, huge amounts of inebriated and often antisocial behavior, and REALLY huge hotel bills. I love German beer very much, but I don't find much to love about O'fest. It's not like you can't enjoy Bavaria's beer culture any week of the year in a million other ways... I would not drop Prague or your other destinations for O'fest. If something had to be trimmed, it would be O'fest first... perhaps I'd arrange to arrive in Munich in the morning, stow bags in a station locker, see the city's sights in one day, and thereafter catch a train to Salzburg or elsewhere thereafter for the night.
Dec 30th, 2013, 12:44 AM
#3
so just under 3 weeks.
Booking the hotel for O'fest is vital asap.
Think in chunks of say 3 night stays (as you get to understand what you want to do you can shuffle the nights around. So London start at 3 but becomes 5 as does Paris. Trains are the thing to get around plus cheepie airlines.
What do you like doing. If drinking is the thing the world's biggest wine festival is in Bad Durkheim in Mid Sept. Belgium has more beers than you can believe etc etc
Booking the hotel for O'fest is vital asap.
Think in chunks of say 3 night stays (as you get to understand what you want to do you can shuffle the nights around. So London start at 3 but becomes 5 as does Paris. Trains are the thing to get around plus cheepie airlines.
What do you like doing. If drinking is the thing the world's biggest wine festival is in Bad Durkheim in Mid Sept. Belgium has more beers than you can believe etc etc
Dec 30th, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Oktoberfest is an incredible city wide party. If that is what you expect you will have a blast. Some people can't stand museums or quiet provincial towns either. Go figure.
You have 8 days after arrival before you want to arrive in Munich and London and Paris are on the menu in those 8 days (well at least Paris). Did you figure on 4 nights for each?
It doesn't really matter what days you visit Munich if you do not have tickets for one of the beer tents or if you do not want to try your luck arriving early and waiting for a spot. Opening day is likely to be very busy but if you are there for it you are likely going to enjoy the parade more than struggling for a seat in a beer tent. I love German and I adore the beer and Oktoberfest and for me, the Oktoberfest parade turned out to be more of a highlight than I expected. You would need to be there the day before , if coming from Paris, obviously. The whole city is fired up and everywhere you go there is a celebratory atmosphere - you will enjoy yourself in any Bierkeller or restaurant you visit (go early!). Hotels are more expensive, but if you plan early and are willing to travel into the centre from areas farther away it is not outrageous.
Are you flying in and out of London or can you arrange an open jaw out of Prague, Munich or Amsterdam, perhaps? That will definitely change the advice and recommendations you will get.
You have 8 days after arrival before you want to arrive in Munich and London and Paris are on the menu in those 8 days (well at least Paris). Did you figure on 4 nights for each?
It doesn't really matter what days you visit Munich if you do not have tickets for one of the beer tents or if you do not want to try your luck arriving early and waiting for a spot. Opening day is likely to be very busy but if you are there for it you are likely going to enjoy the parade more than struggling for a seat in a beer tent. I love German and I adore the beer and Oktoberfest and for me, the Oktoberfest parade turned out to be more of a highlight than I expected. You would need to be there the day before , if coming from Paris, obviously. The whole city is fired up and everywhere you go there is a celebratory atmosphere - you will enjoy yourself in any Bierkeller or restaurant you visit (go early!). Hotels are more expensive, but if you plan early and are willing to travel into the centre from areas farther away it is not outrageous.
Are you flying in and out of London or can you arrange an open jaw out of Prague, Munich or Amsterdam, perhaps? That will definitely change the advice and recommendations you will get.
Dec 30th, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Not sure if you've been to London or how long you intend to stay there, or whether you want a busman's holiday, but of interest to Pharm types: Herb Garret at Old Operating Theatre and the Chelsea Physic Garden.
Dec 30th, 2013, 07:34 PM
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You leave on Saturday, arrive on Sunday in a state of sleep deprivation, and can expect to be mostly functional on Monday. You have to wrap up on Tuesday 9/30 and fly out on Wed 10/1.
So you have 16 fully useful days to yourselves.
You list six major cities. I’m sure you just threw out those names, realizing that you can’t have them all. So it comes down to prioritizing, and only you can do it.
How important is the Oktoberfest to you? Just a quick look so you can say you’ve been there? The silliness and grossness of it all quickly gets old for most grown-ups - how many grinning and drunken fools can you stand for how many hours? Then again, those who are adolescents all their lives can revel forever in the bad music and noisy comradeship...
Munich has so much more to offer than the O’fest - it is really a very cultured city and could be a five-day target easily. That’s before you add side trips.
What draws you to Amsterdam? A week is not enough for many, while others can “do it” in a day or two.
Before we can make useful suggestions, I’d like to see more precise indications from you about what you intend to do and see in these cities, and then the culling can begin, because there will have to be some culling.
Look at guidebooks and travel DVDs and scan the web.
Also ask yourselves - why only cities? There are immense treasures, like the Black Forest region, The Romantic Road, the Rhineland from Mainz to Koblenz, Burgundy, Alsace, and on and on - all consisting of smaller towns and villages, and all vacation paradises par excellence.
Hope to read you again soon.
So you have 16 fully useful days to yourselves.
You list six major cities. I’m sure you just threw out those names, realizing that you can’t have them all. So it comes down to prioritizing, and only you can do it.
How important is the Oktoberfest to you? Just a quick look so you can say you’ve been there? The silliness and grossness of it all quickly gets old for most grown-ups - how many grinning and drunken fools can you stand for how many hours? Then again, those who are adolescents all their lives can revel forever in the bad music and noisy comradeship...
Munich has so much more to offer than the O’fest - it is really a very cultured city and could be a five-day target easily. That’s before you add side trips.
What draws you to Amsterdam? A week is not enough for many, while others can “do it” in a day or two.
Before we can make useful suggestions, I’d like to see more precise indications from you about what you intend to do and see in these cities, and then the culling can begin, because there will have to be some culling.
Look at guidebooks and travel DVDs and scan the web.
Also ask yourselves - why only cities? There are immense treasures, like the Black Forest region, The Romantic Road, the Rhineland from Mainz to Koblenz, Burgundy, Alsace, and on and on - all consisting of smaller towns and villages, and all vacation paradises par excellence.
Hope to read you again soon.
Jan 4th, 2014, 05:49 AM
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I took German for 6 years throughout middle and high school and we always celebrated the beginning of Oktoberfest. I've just always had it in my mind that I would someday go and experience it. My husband and I do love beer (much more than wine) and enjoy attending different brewfests in the US.
At this point, I am thinking of dropping London. Fly in to Amsterdam, head down through Belgium (I don't know much about Belgium - What should I see/do?), stay in Paris for a few days, see Bavaria on the way to Munich (Castle Neuschwanstein is a must), spend a couple days in Munich, and finish out the trip in Berlin. I would like to maybe see a small village, but I love the museums, history, etc of cities.
Does this sound more realistic? I very much appreciate all of your input so far and look forward to reading more! Thank-you!
At this point, I am thinking of dropping London. Fly in to Amsterdam, head down through Belgium (I don't know much about Belgium - What should I see/do?), stay in Paris for a few days, see Bavaria on the way to Munich (Castle Neuschwanstein is a must), spend a couple days in Munich, and finish out the trip in Berlin. I would like to maybe see a small village, but I love the museums, history, etc of cities.
Does this sound more realistic? I very much appreciate all of your input so far and look forward to reading more! Thank-you!
Jan 4th, 2014, 06:18 AM
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So you really want to see Oktoberfest and cities and won't be convinced to so something else by folks who don't share those interests - good for you.
If you skip London the trip gets more manageable logistically. Amsterdam - Belgium - Paris - Bavaria - Munich - Berlin can be made into a reasonable 19 day itinerary.
In Belgium, one fitst thinks of Brussels, but it is not a very favoured place among most travelers. As the location of the European Union, it is government focused and can be a bit ragged. Given that you have only about 3 days for each area you want to visit, you might consider Brugge as a town to visit here.
From Paris, if you want to see some Bavaria before heading to Munich I presume you mean the mountains. That is not a simple task by train unless you want to move daily or plant yourself in one spot and take some day trips. You might find it easier to go directly to Munich from Paris, stay a little longer and do Neuschwanstein and other southern Bavarian sights as day trips.
Between Munich and Berlin there are a number of great places to visit. For small to moderate cities; Bamberg, Regensburg, Wurzburg, Nuremberg, and Dresden (Museums!). There are also any number of smaller towns along the way you could stay in if you haven't used up that portion of your itinerary on Brugge or somewhere in the Alps.
Keep formulating and checking in.
If you skip London the trip gets more manageable logistically. Amsterdam - Belgium - Paris - Bavaria - Munich - Berlin can be made into a reasonable 19 day itinerary.
In Belgium, one fitst thinks of Brussels, but it is not a very favoured place among most travelers. As the location of the European Union, it is government focused and can be a bit ragged. Given that you have only about 3 days for each area you want to visit, you might consider Brugge as a town to visit here.
From Paris, if you want to see some Bavaria before heading to Munich I presume you mean the mountains. That is not a simple task by train unless you want to move daily or plant yourself in one spot and take some day trips. You might find it easier to go directly to Munich from Paris, stay a little longer and do Neuschwanstein and other southern Bavarian sights as day trips.
Between Munich and Berlin there are a number of great places to visit. For small to moderate cities; Bamberg, Regensburg, Wurzburg, Nuremberg, and Dresden (Museums!). There are also any number of smaller towns along the way you could stay in if you haven't used up that portion of your itinerary on Brugge or somewhere in the Alps.
Keep formulating and checking in.
Jan 4th, 2014, 02:56 PM
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Aramis,
You are so helpful! Thank-you again for all the information. I am going town by town and making a list of things I want to see (with the help of a tour book). I will surely be back with more questions shortly.
You are so helpful! Thank-you again for all the information. I am going town by town and making a list of things I want to see (with the help of a tour book). I will surely be back with more questions shortly.
Jan 4th, 2014, 03:40 PM
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I think the Grand Plaza in Brussels is one of the prettiest places in Europe, so you might see it, buy some chocolates, and then go on to Brugge. We did a night time ride through Brussels, and all those government buildings are lovely when seen alight.
Jan 6th, 2014, 07:50 AM
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Here's a rough itinerary…
Fly into Amsterdam. Arrive 8:20am on Saturday. I'm sure we will be exhausted, but if hotels there are anything like here, we won't be able to check in for a few hours. I plan on staying all day Saturday and Sunday and most of the day Monday. I would like to see/do:
Rijksmuseum
Van Gogh Museum
Heineken Experience (my husbands family really likes to drink and they are known for loving this beer)
Anne Frank House
Red Light District Walk
Canal Boat Tour
Maybe see a show at Boom Chicago
Train to Bruges Monday night. Stay all day Tuesday and head to Paris at some point on Wednesday - Morning or night depending on how much we like Bruges. In Bruges I would like to see/do:
Markt - climb the bell tower
De Halve Maan Brewery Tour
Chocolate museum and shops
Bike tour (my book says this is a 5 mile, 2.5 hour tour)
Train to Paris Wedesday. I plan on spending ~5 days in Paris. While there, I would like to see/do:
Rick Steves Walking Tour (4 hours, 3 miles)
Notre Dame Cathedral
Louvre
Orsay Museum
Orangerie Museum (should I see this and the Orsay or is that too much? Is one better?)
Eiffel Tower
Champs-Elysees/Arc de Triomphe
Picasso Museum
Holocaust Memorial
Pere Lachaise Cemetary
Day Trip to Versailles
I would like to take the overnight train to Munich Sunday night, putting us in Munich Monday 9/22 morning. I'm a little up in the air on Munich and exactly how long we will need there. I know many of the things I want to do are 'day trips'. On that note, here is what I want to see/do:
Beer and Brewery Tour (book says 3.5hours and it visits Paulaner and the Hofbrauhaus)
Neuschwanstein (daytrip)
Dachau (half a day trip?)
Marienplatz/St. Peter's
Viktualienmarkt
BMW Museum (Is this worth seeing? My book says it is)
Considering a day trip to Salzburg. Should we?
I'm thinking 4 days in Munich at this point, though we may need 5 if we go to Salzburg. I would like to take the overnight train to Berlin and we should arrive either Friday or Saturday and we will fly back to the US from Berlin on Wednesday 10/1, though I may consider a day or 2 earlier if we won't need as much time in Berlin (my husband thinks my current itinerary is too long to be away). In Berlin I would like to see/do:
Hop on/ Hop off bus tour OR a guided walking tour
Reichstag
Brandenburg Gate
Memorial to the Murdered Jews
Under den Linden (see the area)
German History Museum
Fassbender and Rausch Chocolate Shop
Museum at Checkpoint Charlie
East Side Gallery
Potsdamer Platz
Oranienburger Strasse and Prenzlauer Berg (see the areas)
I know this is a lot, but I really appreciate any input you have. What am I missing? What should I cut out?
Also, any help with the trains would be very helpful! I have no idea about them….
Fly into Amsterdam. Arrive 8:20am on Saturday. I'm sure we will be exhausted, but if hotels there are anything like here, we won't be able to check in for a few hours. I plan on staying all day Saturday and Sunday and most of the day Monday. I would like to see/do:
Rijksmuseum
Van Gogh Museum
Heineken Experience (my husbands family really likes to drink and they are known for loving this beer)
Anne Frank House
Red Light District Walk
Canal Boat Tour
Maybe see a show at Boom Chicago
Train to Bruges Monday night. Stay all day Tuesday and head to Paris at some point on Wednesday - Morning or night depending on how much we like Bruges. In Bruges I would like to see/do:
Markt - climb the bell tower
De Halve Maan Brewery Tour
Chocolate museum and shops
Bike tour (my book says this is a 5 mile, 2.5 hour tour)
Train to Paris Wedesday. I plan on spending ~5 days in Paris. While there, I would like to see/do:
Rick Steves Walking Tour (4 hours, 3 miles)
Notre Dame Cathedral
Louvre
Orsay Museum
Orangerie Museum (should I see this and the Orsay or is that too much? Is one better?)
Eiffel Tower
Champs-Elysees/Arc de Triomphe
Picasso Museum
Holocaust Memorial
Pere Lachaise Cemetary
Day Trip to Versailles
I would like to take the overnight train to Munich Sunday night, putting us in Munich Monday 9/22 morning. I'm a little up in the air on Munich and exactly how long we will need there. I know many of the things I want to do are 'day trips'. On that note, here is what I want to see/do:
Beer and Brewery Tour (book says 3.5hours and it visits Paulaner and the Hofbrauhaus)
Neuschwanstein (daytrip)
Dachau (half a day trip?)
Marienplatz/St. Peter's
Viktualienmarkt
BMW Museum (Is this worth seeing? My book says it is)
Considering a day trip to Salzburg. Should we?
I'm thinking 4 days in Munich at this point, though we may need 5 if we go to Salzburg. I would like to take the overnight train to Berlin and we should arrive either Friday or Saturday and we will fly back to the US from Berlin on Wednesday 10/1, though I may consider a day or 2 earlier if we won't need as much time in Berlin (my husband thinks my current itinerary is too long to be away). In Berlin I would like to see/do:
Hop on/ Hop off bus tour OR a guided walking tour
Reichstag
Brandenburg Gate
Memorial to the Murdered Jews
Under den Linden (see the area)
German History Museum
Fassbender and Rausch Chocolate Shop
Museum at Checkpoint Charlie
East Side Gallery
Potsdamer Platz
Oranienburger Strasse and Prenzlauer Berg (see the areas)
I know this is a lot, but I really appreciate any input you have. What am I missing? What should I cut out?
Also, any help with the trains would be very helpful! I have no idea about them….
Jan 6th, 2014, 04:02 PM
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You sure have been doing some research haven't you?
Cutting your post down to just the major itinerary moves and noting where you sleep each night, I get;
Sep 13,14 - Amsterdam
Sep 15,16 - Brugge ( I prefer the Flemish name, since it's Flemish
)
Sep 17,18,19,20 - Paris
Sep 21 - Overnight train to Munich
Sep 22,23,24,25 - Munich
Sep 26 - Overnight train to Berlin
Sep 27,28,29,30 - Berlin
Oct 1 - fly home
Most of us who do this a lot tend to plan by listing the location and number of nights staying, ignoring the days of the week because they don't mean much once you're there except to plan around museum openings and such. That would turn your list into;
Amsterdam - 2
Brugge - 2
Paris - 4
Paris/Munich Train - 1
Munich - 4
Munich/Berlin Train - 1
Berlin - 4
Here are some rail logistics;
Amsterdam - Brugge = approx 3 hours (connection in Brussels)
Brugge - Paris = approx 3 hours, (connection in Brussels) You found the halfway mark in Brugge for sure
Paris - Munich = approx 6 hours daytime or 11 hours on a dedicated sleeper/night train (no connections)
Munich - Berlin = approx 6 hours daytime or 10 hours on a dedicated sleeper/night train (no connections)
www.bahn.com - or "Deutsche Bahn" (DB) is the German Rail site and the bible for almost all timetable research in Europe. Click on with "USA" or "Other Countries" and away you go with a fairly (it's German so they like things to be "technically" correct) easy to use and definitely comprehensive site showing all your options. You can book most tickets originating or terminating in Germany through the site directly. Those that you can't can usually be bought through the national rail site of the countries involved. You don't really need reservations except for your Paris Munich and Munich Berlin legs so those are available on Bahn.com The advance purchase window is 91 days, I believe so you have to wait until about June 14 or 15 to buy them. Mark your calendar and get in as soon as possible when eligible because fares are usually cheaper. There are others who know more about purchasing rail tickets than I so hopefully they will chime in.
As for time in each place, you can easily keep very busy in each of Paris, Berlin, and Munich for 4 days. How much time you spend in each is dependent on which sites you want to see more in each place, I guess.
in Berlin, check out the Pergamon and Bode museums, too. For the Reichstag you should make an appointment in advance if you want a tour (it is great and it gets you to the dome without any line-up. You email them to od this and the info is on the official site. If you stay in Mitte, near Friedrichstrasse station, or a little south of it, you will be in the best position to accomplish your aims.
Dachau is a 30 minute commuter rail ride from the Munich train station so it can be toured in 1/2 a day
I would definitely do Salzburg as a day trip from Munich ( I would actually stay in it as I have done 3 times already but you don't have the time here). It is one of my favourite places in all Europe. Not packed with major sights (I do not call anything related to the Sound of Music "major", even though I love the movie) but it has just such a great "feel" about it. Schloss Mirabell and the gardens and the Hohensalzburg fortress are great stops.
Brugge and it's canals are simply stunning at night and early in the mornings so try and use both of those to just walk them. The bike tour, if you take it your first morning should reveal the places you want to come back and see at night and the following morning. Stay as cetral and "canal" focused as you can manage in Brugge.
I have a feeling you are going to be busy the next day or so tearing up the Inter-Webs some more.
Cutting your post down to just the major itinerary moves and noting where you sleep each night, I get;
Sep 13,14 - Amsterdam
Sep 15,16 - Brugge ( I prefer the Flemish name, since it's Flemish
) Sep 17,18,19,20 - Paris
Sep 21 - Overnight train to Munich
Sep 22,23,24,25 - Munich
Sep 26 - Overnight train to Berlin
Sep 27,28,29,30 - Berlin
Oct 1 - fly home
Most of us who do this a lot tend to plan by listing the location and number of nights staying, ignoring the days of the week because they don't mean much once you're there except to plan around museum openings and such. That would turn your list into;
Amsterdam - 2
Brugge - 2
Paris - 4
Paris/Munich Train - 1
Munich - 4
Munich/Berlin Train - 1
Berlin - 4
Here are some rail logistics;
Amsterdam - Brugge = approx 3 hours (connection in Brussels)
Brugge - Paris = approx 3 hours, (connection in Brussels) You found the halfway mark in Brugge for sure
Paris - Munich = approx 6 hours daytime or 11 hours on a dedicated sleeper/night train (no connections)
Munich - Berlin = approx 6 hours daytime or 10 hours on a dedicated sleeper/night train (no connections)
www.bahn.com - or "Deutsche Bahn" (DB) is the German Rail site and the bible for almost all timetable research in Europe. Click on with "USA" or "Other Countries" and away you go with a fairly (it's German so they like things to be "technically" correct) easy to use and definitely comprehensive site showing all your options. You can book most tickets originating or terminating in Germany through the site directly. Those that you can't can usually be bought through the national rail site of the countries involved. You don't really need reservations except for your Paris Munich and Munich Berlin legs so those are available on Bahn.com The advance purchase window is 91 days, I believe so you have to wait until about June 14 or 15 to buy them. Mark your calendar and get in as soon as possible when eligible because fares are usually cheaper. There are others who know more about purchasing rail tickets than I so hopefully they will chime in.
As for time in each place, you can easily keep very busy in each of Paris, Berlin, and Munich for 4 days. How much time you spend in each is dependent on which sites you want to see more in each place, I guess.
in Berlin, check out the Pergamon and Bode museums, too. For the Reichstag you should make an appointment in advance if you want a tour (it is great and it gets you to the dome without any line-up. You email them to od this and the info is on the official site. If you stay in Mitte, near Friedrichstrasse station, or a little south of it, you will be in the best position to accomplish your aims.
Dachau is a 30 minute commuter rail ride from the Munich train station so it can be toured in 1/2 a day
I would definitely do Salzburg as a day trip from Munich ( I would actually stay in it as I have done 3 times already but you don't have the time here). It is one of my favourite places in all Europe. Not packed with major sights (I do not call anything related to the Sound of Music "major", even though I love the movie) but it has just such a great "feel" about it. Schloss Mirabell and the gardens and the Hohensalzburg fortress are great stops.
Brugge and it's canals are simply stunning at night and early in the mornings so try and use both of those to just walk them. The bike tour, if you take it your first morning should reveal the places you want to come back and see at night and the following morning. Stay as cetral and "canal" focused as you can manage in Brugge.
I have a feeling you are going to be busy the next day or so tearing up the Inter-Webs some more.
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