Using Gaelic in Ireland?
Feb 6th, 2007, 05:34 AM
#21
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minto wrote: "Learn some basics and try it out in the Gaeltacht pubs- I'd be surprised if you didn't get a lovely reaction."
You mightn't. Irish people appreciate authenticity.
Let me illustrate. I sat in a pub where some good Irish musicians were playing. A visitor pulled a tin whistle out of his pocket and played along with them -- he could play the notes but, as we might say in Ireland, the music wasn't in him. The musicians clearly did not like his intervention.
When the musicians took a break, a Breton who was with me asked if he might try the accordeon one had put down. He fidgeted with it a little (I learned that day that accordeons can be tuned differently) and then played a couple of Breton tunes. The guys enjoyed that.
You mightn't. Irish people appreciate authenticity.
Let me illustrate. I sat in a pub where some good Irish musicians were playing. A visitor pulled a tin whistle out of his pocket and played along with them -- he could play the notes but, as we might say in Ireland, the music wasn't in him. The musicians clearly did not like his intervention.
When the musicians took a break, a Breton who was with me asked if he might try the accordeon one had put down. He fidgeted with it a little (I learned that day that accordeons can be tuned differently) and then played a couple of Breton tunes. The guys enjoyed that.
Feb 6th, 2007, 08:23 AM
#23
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Another thank you for all the great responses. This has been so helpful. I am using the website that you have given me to practice a few words/phrases but I have not paid the gold membership yet. It certainly helps having the recording and it worked fine on my computer. I am amazed at the number of replies here! I guess I hit on a good topic. =) I do hope to learn the language eventually... I just think it would be a nice talent to learn. I just did not know if I needed to rush for this upcoming trip.
All of you have been great. Thank you so much for the help. I look forward to any other tips or suggestions that come in.
All of you have been great. Thank you so much for the help. I look forward to any other tips or suggestions that come in.
Feb 6th, 2007, 09:32 AM
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Naplo999 wrote: "There are certain pubs that only speak Irish. In Galway "Aras na n Gael" or something like that."
Hmm. I went into a pub in the gaeltacht and ordering in Irish generated a puzzled look from the barmaid. She didn't do much better in English. We concluded the transaction in French.
Hmm. I went into a pub in the gaeltacht and ordering in Irish generated a puzzled look from the barmaid. She didn't do much better in English. We concluded the transaction in French.
Feb 6th, 2007, 09:40 AM
#27
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From Galway.net -
Club Aras na nGael
45 Dominick Street Lower, Galway
Telephone: +353 91 567824
Want to brush up on your Irish over a pint of Guinness? This is the perfect place. Non members welcome, but an effort to speak Irish is expected. Excellent trad music most nights too. Also a venue for Irish dancing.
Here's another place in Galway.
Pucan
11 Forster Street, Galway
Telephone: +353 91 561528
Fax: +353 91 569895
This pub features traditional Irish music every night and it is one of the main Irish language pubs in the city, with a clientele largely comprised of native Irish speakers. The colourful exterior is extremely welcoming and a warm cead mile failte is to be enjoyed beyond it.
Club Aras na nGael
45 Dominick Street Lower, Galway
Telephone: +353 91 567824
Want to brush up on your Irish over a pint of Guinness? This is the perfect place. Non members welcome, but an effort to speak Irish is expected. Excellent trad music most nights too. Also a venue for Irish dancing.
Here's another place in Galway.
Pucan
11 Forster Street, Galway
Telephone: +353 91 561528
Fax: +353 91 569895
This pub features traditional Irish music every night and it is one of the main Irish language pubs in the city, with a clientele largely comprised of native Irish speakers. The colourful exterior is extremely welcoming and a warm cead mile failte is to be enjoyed beyond it.
Feb 7th, 2007, 12:54 PM
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Padraig:
Well, I enjoyed your illustration and it makes sense to me. My guess is that the whistle player learned the music from the page. This can be done, but then you need to adapt to the ornamentation which is VERY complicated, especially on the whistle. Whether or not the music was "in him" is a matter of some conjecture, but in all likelihood, he had no concept of ornamentation and would have a very difficult time learning it from a book or even a CD. Trust me, I've tried and I'm not close yet. Honestly though, paying the box isn't as complicated as that very unassuming looking piece of metal tubing and plastic.
Yes, playing the whistle is very much like ordering a beer. I don't think you will get that "respect" that people suggest you get in many countries for trying to speak the local language. My suggestion is to try and learn quite a bit about Irish history which will help you appreciate where you are. Oh, and don't order a "Smiddicks" just because someone told you that's how it's pronounced there. That's sort of like trying to have a brogue. It's Smithicks.
Bill
Well, I enjoyed your illustration and it makes sense to me. My guess is that the whistle player learned the music from the page. This can be done, but then you need to adapt to the ornamentation which is VERY complicated, especially on the whistle. Whether or not the music was "in him" is a matter of some conjecture, but in all likelihood, he had no concept of ornamentation and would have a very difficult time learning it from a book or even a CD. Trust me, I've tried and I'm not close yet. Honestly though, paying the box isn't as complicated as that very unassuming looking piece of metal tubing and plastic.
Yes, playing the whistle is very much like ordering a beer. I don't think you will get that "respect" that people suggest you get in many countries for trying to speak the local language. My suggestion is to try and learn quite a bit about Irish history which will help you appreciate where you are. Oh, and don't order a "Smiddicks" just because someone told you that's how it's pronounced there. That's sort of like trying to have a brogue. It's Smithicks.
Bill
Feb 7th, 2007, 01:26 PM
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I'm glad my point wasn't lost on everybody!
There is more to Irish music than the basic melody and ornamentation -- I'm sure that you know that. Phrasing and sliding notes and even going a little off-tempo all come into it. A person might be well-versed in European art music or American folk music or some other genre, yet not have a proper feel for Irish music. That's what I intended to express when I said the music wasn't in him.
On repect for speaking the local language: Herself and I were in France last week; we conducted all our transactions in reasonable (but not quite fluent) French; it was accepted in a matter-of-fact way by our interlocutors, but I don't think we got any brownie points. Neither do I think it would have had negative impact if we used English, provided we had the manners to ask first.
There is more to Irish music than the basic melody and ornamentation -- I'm sure that you know that. Phrasing and sliding notes and even going a little off-tempo all come into it. A person might be well-versed in European art music or American folk music or some other genre, yet not have a proper feel for Irish music. That's what I intended to express when I said the music wasn't in him.
On repect for speaking the local language: Herself and I were in France last week; we conducted all our transactions in reasonable (but not quite fluent) French; it was accepted in a matter-of-fact way by our interlocutors, but I don't think we got any brownie points. Neither do I think it would have had negative impact if we used English, provided we had the manners to ask first.
Feb 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM
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Yes, phrasing and sliding notes and tempo is important in Irish music .... and jazz .... and classical music ... and they are all done differently. It's actually one of the things that the more different styles you work to assimilate into, the easier it is to hear them. I undertand the notion of "the music not in him" but it isn't just an Irish concept. You ought to listen to the Boston Pops Orchestra (or any orchestra trying to play pops) try to swing. It's ugly. Then again, it's probably hard for a Donegal style player to go west Clare.
I don't use the word ornaments in the same way a classical player would. It involves slides and working the tempo around long rolls and such. Oh, I have much to learn, but I'm trying and at least I can hear what I'm doing wrong. Making it right is a much harder thing. Oddly Padraig, through all of the discussions I've had with Irish musicians, you explained the differences with much more and simpler clarity. Thanks!
Bill
I don't use the word ornaments in the same way a classical player would. It involves slides and working the tempo around long rolls and such. Oh, I have much to learn, but I'm trying and at least I can hear what I'm doing wrong. Making it right is a much harder thing. Oddly Padraig, through all of the discussions I've had with Irish musicians, you explained the differences with much more and simpler clarity. Thanks!
Bill
Feb 8th, 2007, 10:58 AM
#33
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Padraig,
As is the case in any language, different areas, different dialects. I am lucky enough to have several friends who speak Irish and one who speaks Scot Gaelic. Of those who speak Irish, 6 are native speakers from different regions, the rest are learning as they go, as am I . It is very interesting to hear us all together, as the pronunciations vary, brogues thin & thicken and the conversation is sometimes rapid fire. My most passionate mentor switches from Irish to Spanish to English and back again with such fluidity that you are left marveling at his skills.
Each of the Native speakers has expressed appreciation for those of us who have taken the time to learn or, in my case, revisit their language. My phonetics might be a bit off for some but for others, it is on target.
Blue, my suggestion would be to learn simple greetings and use them as you feel comfortable.
Bill and Padraig,
There are a lot of musicians who play their music without feeling it.There are many people who can play but there are a lot of those hwo shouldn't do so in public. Music, like language, takes passion. I, too, appreciated your explanation, Padraig.
All said, I have found that, though English is spoken and understood in many countries, the local people really do appreciate your attempts to speak in their native tongue, as it shows that you have made an effort to learn and aren't looking for the "disney" experience. When in Mexico, I use my limited Spanish (sorry Grandma, in Ireland & Scotland, I use my eve expanding yet still limited (Sorry, Gran)Gaelic. There are those times after a few too many Jameson thatt I speak in Spanish, Gaelic, Cherokee and English.
Slan Go Foill,
Bit
As is the case in any language, different areas, different dialects. I am lucky enough to have several friends who speak Irish and one who speaks Scot Gaelic. Of those who speak Irish, 6 are native speakers from different regions, the rest are learning as they go, as am I . It is very interesting to hear us all together, as the pronunciations vary, brogues thin & thicken and the conversation is sometimes rapid fire. My most passionate mentor switches from Irish to Spanish to English and back again with such fluidity that you are left marveling at his skills.
Each of the Native speakers has expressed appreciation for those of us who have taken the time to learn or, in my case, revisit their language. My phonetics might be a bit off for some but for others, it is on target.
Blue, my suggestion would be to learn simple greetings and use them as you feel comfortable.
Bill and Padraig,
There are a lot of musicians who play their music without feeling it.There are many people who can play but there are a lot of those hwo shouldn't do so in public. Music, like language, takes passion. I, too, appreciated your explanation, Padraig.
All said, I have found that, though English is spoken and understood in many countries, the local people really do appreciate your attempts to speak in their native tongue, as it shows that you have made an effort to learn and aren't looking for the "disney" experience. When in Mexico, I use my limited Spanish (sorry Grandma, in Ireland & Scotland, I use my eve expanding yet still limited (Sorry, Gran)Gaelic. There are those times after a few too many Jameson thatt I speak in Spanish, Gaelic, Cherokee and English.
Slan Go Foill,
Bit
Feb 8th, 2007, 03:33 PM
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The first foreign language I was exposed to was Spanish - go figure, we moved to Miami when I was 9.
I'm reasonably fluent in Spanish, and can carry on conversations, read newspapers, etc. I'm told I have a very good accent in it, though it's slightly Cuban (again, go figure).
When I started learning a little Danish, Italian, and then Irish, I managed, somehow, to speak it in a Spanish accent rather than an American one. I guess my mind thought 'oh, it's a foreign language, it sounds like THIS'. It didn't help that some Irish words have very similar Latin cognates, and thus Spanish similarities. Italian was a lost case, it was way too similar to separate.
Danish with a Spanish-American accent is hilarious.
I'm reasonably fluent in Spanish, and can carry on conversations, read newspapers, etc. I'm told I have a very good accent in it, though it's slightly Cuban (again, go figure).
When I started learning a little Danish, Italian, and then Irish, I managed, somehow, to speak it in a Spanish accent rather than an American one. I guess my mind thought 'oh, it's a foreign language, it sounds like THIS'. It didn't help that some Irish words have very similar Latin cognates, and thus Spanish similarities. Italian was a lost case, it was way too similar to separate.
Danish with a Spanish-American accent is hilarious.
Feb 9th, 2007, 07:43 AM
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OK so off we go on a music discussion. Who should determine who should play in public? Must someone be able to "feel" the music before they are allowed to be heard publicly. Isn't the point of playing music to have it heard? I have music students who don't yet "feel" the music but I encourage them to be heard. If they don't, how will they ever get to a point that they feel it. OF course, they may feel it in a way someone else doesn't understand.
Remember what "Folk Music" really is. It's music performed by folks. Not carefully produced, digitally enhanced and slickly marketed, but folks hanging around a piano, or someone with a guitar singing along. We are all learning as we go and I have to respectfully suggest that when we start telling people who can be allowed to play, we will start loosing an audience for it.
Bill
Remember what "Folk Music" really is. It's music performed by folks. Not carefully produced, digitally enhanced and slickly marketed, but folks hanging around a piano, or someone with a guitar singing along. We are all learning as we go and I have to respectfully suggest that when we start telling people who can be allowed to play, we will start loosing an audience for it.
Bill
Feb 9th, 2007, 09:29 AM
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Bill,
Tis true, what you speak.I will always commend anyone who performs in front of others. We have all had those "off" moments whilst performing in public where we wish we could rewind and start over. One of the things that I love about Ireland is the unrestrained & unabashed love of singing, music and spoken word. Here in the states, you will ask someone if they sing and they will say "no, because I am not very good." In Ireland, the response will be "I sing and the local dogs sing harmony" and then they will launch into song. It is part of the magic of Ireland, for me, anyways.
I only meant that here are those times when we find ourselves wincing while listening to some misfitted music. AS you said, "You ought to listen to the Boston Pops Orchestra (or any orchestra trying to play pops) try to swing. It's ugly. Then again, it's probably hard for a Donegal style player to go west Clare."
I have actually considered learning the concertina. It would be much simpler to haul around on planes than a Bodhran, mandolin and a guitar. of course, I could just stick to singing and make my life that much easier. :biggrin:
Slan Go Foill,
Bit
Tis true, what you speak.I will always commend anyone who performs in front of others. We have all had those "off" moments whilst performing in public where we wish we could rewind and start over. One of the things that I love about Ireland is the unrestrained & unabashed love of singing, music and spoken word. Here in the states, you will ask someone if they sing and they will say "no, because I am not very good." In Ireland, the response will be "I sing and the local dogs sing harmony" and then they will launch into song. It is part of the magic of Ireland, for me, anyways.
I only meant that here are those times when we find ourselves wincing while listening to some misfitted music. AS you said, "You ought to listen to the Boston Pops Orchestra (or any orchestra trying to play pops) try to swing. It's ugly. Then again, it's probably hard for a Donegal style player to go west Clare."
I have actually considered learning the concertina. It would be much simpler to haul around on planes than a Bodhran, mandolin and a guitar. of course, I could just stick to singing and make my life that much easier. :biggrin:
Slan Go Foill,
Bit
