Unauthorized porters in Naples train station
Feb 27th, 2005, 05:40 AM
#41
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mermaid_, you may have felt "secretly foolish" but you and your husband got through the incident without bodily harm or stolen goods. The advice to "stand up" to a persistent scammer in a foreign country is ill-advised. Would you be foolish to stand up to a smiling mugger or open your car door when confronted by a squeegee man at an unknown intersection? Just because someone (seemingly) performed an act of kindness doesn't make him any less responsible for extortion. (Contact Rudolph Giuliani for more info.) The "act of kindness" is the psychological cover for the crime.
Desperate people do desperate things and everybody needs to eat. The basic problem here is NOT whether you "stood up" to your scam porter but why the Italian train-service authorities don't install many more uniformed, legit, porters at their main, most heavily populated, train stations. (Has anyone ever been helped by a legit porter?)
This discussion occurs quite often among expats living in Italy. It is a source of frustration for many. If you love Italy, write a letter to the proper authorities. I posted an address on the Info Italy thread. Remember, apathy and cynicism deliver nothing.
<i>"If I accept help in carrying my bags and helping me figure out how to validate my ticket, find the right train and car, then puts my bags in the overhead rack, I would gladly tip that person too, if they were obviously in it for the money. I don't see this as a "scam", but a way to make money for a service."</i>
The "if I accept" is key here because most artful scammers bypass your opportunity to legitimately "accept" by grabbing one (or all) of your bags before you have a chance to gather your wits and understand what exactly is happening. These guys prey on the tired, the weary, and those who appear to be slightly struggling with large, heavy bags. Plus, I've NEVER seen one of these guys approach anyone who looks remotely Italian. Italians insist they can spot an Italian a mile away.
Desperate people do desperate things and everybody needs to eat. The basic problem here is NOT whether you "stood up" to your scam porter but why the Italian train-service authorities don't install many more uniformed, legit, porters at their main, most heavily populated, train stations. (Has anyone ever been helped by a legit porter?)
This discussion occurs quite often among expats living in Italy. It is a source of frustration for many. If you love Italy, write a letter to the proper authorities. I posted an address on the Info Italy thread. Remember, apathy and cynicism deliver nothing.
<i>"If I accept help in carrying my bags and helping me figure out how to validate my ticket, find the right train and car, then puts my bags in the overhead rack, I would gladly tip that person too, if they were obviously in it for the money. I don't see this as a "scam", but a way to make money for a service."</i>
The "if I accept" is key here because most artful scammers bypass your opportunity to legitimately "accept" by grabbing one (or all) of your bags before you have a chance to gather your wits and understand what exactly is happening. These guys prey on the tired, the weary, and those who appear to be slightly struggling with large, heavy bags. Plus, I've NEVER seen one of these guys approach anyone who looks remotely Italian. Italians insist they can spot an Italian a mile away.
Feb 27th, 2005, 06:12 AM
#42
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For those with selective reading skills and comprehension, the following sentence should read:
"The advice to "stand up" to a persistent scammer in a foreign country is ill-advised (once the scam is already well underway)."
The key to avoid a scam is to see it coming. May you always be able to conjure the word "NO" in time to deter your involvement. Safe travels.
"The advice to "stand up" to a persistent scammer in a foreign country is ill-advised (once the scam is already well underway)."
The key to avoid a scam is to see it coming. May you always be able to conjure the word "NO" in time to deter your involvement. Safe travels.
Feb 27th, 2005, 10:38 PM
#44
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In my own Naples centrale train station experience (shared above), I was approached and my suitcase wrested from my hand. I look Italian, speak Italian fluently, and 9 times out of 10 mistaken for Italian (never American). Not only are non-Italian types targeted. The key here is these guys look for those that are distracted, confused, indecisive, etc. In my case, I know it was because my 4 year old child was with me and I was trying to keep my eye on her and manage (balance) the stroller and suitcase myself. I was clearly an open target as a "mother"!
These attempts of "helping" aren't that because they are never agreed upon. I can say with enough assurance that these porters are more aggressive and speak faster than the unsuspecting tourist(s) they alight upon. So one is felt defenseless with their barrage and intimidation. There is not an agreement reached upon, they assert themselves and take the suitcase(s).
My biggest disappointment is in the caribineri and polizia all over the station. Their vehicles are certainly parked all throughout the Piazza Garibaldi in front of the station, but their presence is certainly lacking and is woefully understated INSIDE the station -- where it is needed the most. My Neapolitan friends say that the polizia allow these scam artists to do their thing in the station, rather than stir up controversy by enforcing any laws upon them, since they won't be adhered to. I get the impression it is just a 'live and let live' attitude. Personally, I was disappointed because I had heard and read previously that Napoli had really cleaned up its act in recent years and that the polizia were more diligent about such wrong-doings throughout the city. I so wanted this to be the case, but sadly did not find this to be so.
These attempts of "helping" aren't that because they are never agreed upon. I can say with enough assurance that these porters are more aggressive and speak faster than the unsuspecting tourist(s) they alight upon. So one is felt defenseless with their barrage and intimidation. There is not an agreement reached upon, they assert themselves and take the suitcase(s).
My biggest disappointment is in the caribineri and polizia all over the station. Their vehicles are certainly parked all throughout the Piazza Garibaldi in front of the station, but their presence is certainly lacking and is woefully understated INSIDE the station -- where it is needed the most. My Neapolitan friends say that the polizia allow these scam artists to do their thing in the station, rather than stir up controversy by enforcing any laws upon them, since they won't be adhered to. I get the impression it is just a 'live and let live' attitude. Personally, I was disappointed because I had heard and read previously that Napoli had really cleaned up its act in recent years and that the polizia were more diligent about such wrong-doings throughout the city. I so wanted this to be the case, but sadly did not find this to be so.
Feb 28th, 2005, 08:00 AM
#45
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Huitres, thank you for clarifying your own experience with profiling. Clearly, there are no absolutes.
The "live and let live" attitude is very much a part of the problem. Bureaucracy and maybe corruption is another (especially in Naples). Change can be slow but consumers must persist.
These issues are not indigenous to Italy alone. I vividly remember living through many taxi scams in NYC through the 70's and 80's. Each had its own clever twist. The most unnerving were the rigged meters in "radio" cabs, where the meter would click faster each time the dispatcher spoke. Unless you knew the details of the scam or had significant experience with the cost of your route, millions of passengers were ripped off daily. This scam persisted for many years.
Then there was the JFK to NYC taxi scam, where a driver would typically drive excessive, unnecessary distances, inflating the cost of the ride to any unknowing passenger. A driver would typically "size-up" his passenger ("Do you live here?"
before proceeding with this one. Again, it took many years before the current "flat rate" fee was implemented.
Decades passed before NYC posted large posters in its airports warning visitors of "gypsy" cabs. The numbers of robberies and accidents in these uninsured vehicles were staggering but very few people heard about the problems and, back then, there were no internet forums where travelers could warn others.
Why did these things take so long to fix? The answer is typically complicated but generally leads to poor leadership and complacent individuals.
Locals typically are aware of the latest hoodlum antics which is why I said "Italians don't target Italians." Locals are more likely to "stand up" to their own crooks and gamble on the potential ramifications. Visitors, on the other hand, are far more vulnerable, especially the hundreds of thousands who don't speak the local language and didn't do enough homework or research the right forums. Thank goodness for Fodor's.
The "live and let live" attitude is very much a part of the problem. Bureaucracy and maybe corruption is another (especially in Naples). Change can be slow but consumers must persist.
These issues are not indigenous to Italy alone. I vividly remember living through many taxi scams in NYC through the 70's and 80's. Each had its own clever twist. The most unnerving were the rigged meters in "radio" cabs, where the meter would click faster each time the dispatcher spoke. Unless you knew the details of the scam or had significant experience with the cost of your route, millions of passengers were ripped off daily. This scam persisted for many years.
Then there was the JFK to NYC taxi scam, where a driver would typically drive excessive, unnecessary distances, inflating the cost of the ride to any unknowing passenger. A driver would typically "size-up" his passenger ("Do you live here?"
before proceeding with this one. Again, it took many years before the current "flat rate" fee was implemented.Decades passed before NYC posted large posters in its airports warning visitors of "gypsy" cabs. The numbers of robberies and accidents in these uninsured vehicles were staggering but very few people heard about the problems and, back then, there were no internet forums where travelers could warn others.
Why did these things take so long to fix? The answer is typically complicated but generally leads to poor leadership and complacent individuals.
Locals typically are aware of the latest hoodlum antics which is why I said "Italians don't target Italians." Locals are more likely to "stand up" to their own crooks and gamble on the potential ramifications. Visitors, on the other hand, are far more vulnerable, especially the hundreds of thousands who don't speak the local language and didn't do enough homework or research the right forums. Thank goodness for Fodor's.
Feb 28th, 2005, 01:25 PM
#47
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Grays and many shades of color, I agree!
I think it's so important to prepare oneself mentally BEFORE getting off the train in latge cities, attempting to appear as confident and alert as possible, even if its a mask. Although I understand the distractions a child can present, of course.
I think it's so important to prepare oneself mentally BEFORE getting off the train in latge cities, attempting to appear as confident and alert as possible, even if its a mask. Although I understand the distractions a child can present, of course.
Feb 28th, 2005, 01:52 PM
#48
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I am in awe of Huitres. I cannot imagine struggling with a little daughter, a stroller plus luggage all by myself. I don't know how she travels so easily and with such great confidence.
And anywhere one goes there is also a small percent of people looking for vernable people. It is hard when travelling to be alert to everything, but it sure is important.
And anywhere one goes there is also a small percent of people looking for vernable people. It is hard when travelling to be alert to everything, but it sure is important.
