To be honest, crosscheck, I am not well-placed to advise you because Herself and I got great value out of doing very little. In terms of being interesting without being too crowded, Arezzo was perhaps our best excursion.

You set up an interesting question with the phrasing "Renaissance Disneyland scene". Much of the stuff, even in Florence, is genuine and impressive. It seems to get downgraded by visitors.

We're headed to Florence to visit our son who is studying there. Not thrilled about the throngs of Americans.>>

cross-check - i was in firenze/florence in May, and sadly failed to find these hoards of your compatriots. things I did not do:

tour the Dome or the Baptistry, or the Campanile. [been there, dome that].

go to the Uffizi or the Accademia

go anywhere near the ponto vecchio

go to any outlets [what ever they are]

I DID got to the monastery of san marco early in the morning when virtually no-one else was there, explore the area north of Santa Croce, which is full of locals and very few tourists of any hue, visit the gardino di barberi which again wasn't full of any nationality, and explore the streets of Oltrano where i was often on my own.

i can't help with day trips from florence, but if you avoid the centre, you should be reasonably "safe".

Firenze was hot, the hottest day of the week. So we spent much of our time flitting from one shadow to another.

We liked the cathedral, and were amused to overhear one tour guide advising her party not to bother with the interior, advice that we thought bad, because we really liked it.

We didn't do museum stuff, because it was too hot a day for us to queue for anything. The one museum we had picked out as a target was closed, and we didn't have a plan B.

The Ponte Vecchio was well worth a look, but the shops on it were not particularly to our liking: Herself isn't into over-priced jewellery (that's one of the secrets of our successful relationship).

We got a very good lunch at a modest price, partly by means of taking the trouble to walk 100 metres away from the main tourist areas.

Five hours was enough for us, and then we headed back into the countryside and had a very enjoyable barbeque dinner at our agriturismo base.

It's quiet here now. Most people have retired for the night. In the morning we pack up and start our journey home.

Seems like there are some fairly smug folks on this thread . . . knowing better than the rest of us average travelers who can't make it to Europe all the time to be able to chill for a week or more.

For me, I'm a tourist. Back to planning my trip to Rome with all the "must-see's". I guess my Italian experience will be mixed in with <gasp> Americans.

indy - i answered the query in the tone in which it was asked, i think ie where can i go to avoid the crowds?

I don't know anyone who actually likes to be surrounded by tourists of any nationality. I'll happily give you a few tips about avoiding the throngs in Rome, if you like.

Thanks, pad and ann. Mr. Crosscheck has come up with a plan to avoid the masses. He has suggested we stay on LA time, wake up at 4:00pm, pop into a museum at 6:00pm for a half hour before closing, have dinner at 8pm, then go clubbing with our son all night.

Our son, when asked what he wants to do with us, said "unlock his Blackberry and buy towels." Sounds like both of those activities will get us off the tourist path.

indy, Italy is one of the most stunning places on the planet, but, sadly, many of its treasures are surrounded by loud, sweaty of every nationality. annhig was far from smug when she provided some excellent advice that I will copiously follow (except the part about getting up early).

Rome will blow you away - It is a magical place with many must-sees. But your best memories will be your spontaneous adventures -- discovering a secret piazza, the perfect gelato, or a killer ruin that isn't in your guidebook.

The last time I was there, there was nary a gringo in sight, but the place was flooded with Eastern European tourists. It was like a citywide Borat convention, and annhig's philosophy would have been spot-on for the first-time visiter.

To experience the real Rome, I would also spend at least some of your holiday adopting Padraig's enviable "no plan, no map" attitude.

oops - word missing: meant to say "loud, sweaty mobs of every nationality"

<i>indy - i answered the query in the tone in which it was asked, i think ie where can i go to avoid the crowds?</i>

I agree. I didn't intend to single you out.

<i>I don't know anyone who actually likes to be surrounded by tourists of any nationality. I'll happily give you a few tips about avoiding the throngs in Rome, if you like.</i>

Sounds good! I'm getting my thoughts together and will start my own thread eventually. I do need to do the basic planning of what there is to see, how long it generally takes, and how it is grouped geographically. From that, I can plan some unplanned time. Thanks!

cross-check - if it fits your body clocks, you might like to think about the palazzo vecchio, which in May was opening until about midnight most nights. I didn't try it, not being a night owl, but you might like to.

indy-dad - fine. I'll look out for your thread. of course the crowds in Rome are relative - you'll be lucky to escape them completely. but early starts will help.

annhig, awesome tip...a palazzo at midnight - sounds like a good set up for a detective novel.

Padraig, I'm inspired by reading your trip and it reminds me of one of my best travel lessons: the days when you just follow your nose are the days of great discoveries.

We are back home now, and quite happy to find it is raining.

We never did get a proper map - just a couple of tourist-office small scale offerings that were difficult to read. Things worked well enough except once. I consulted viamichelin for directions to Bologna Airport, and one supposed roundabout didn't exist, resulting in our missing a turn. I attempted a round-the-block adjustment to get another go, and got thrown into narrow winding country roads. Some of them were extraordinary - little more than 3m. wide between walls that were 2m. high, giving one the sense that if you stopped, you would not be able to open the doors. It would have been fascinating were it not for the fact that we were lost, had a plane to catch, and were being aggressively tailgated by local drivers. But we made it, at the cost of some wear and tear on my nerves.

One thing I didn't mention in my earlier posts: mosquitos. Despite using insect repellent, I was well bitten. We had a magic spray which relieved much of the itching.

We now have the same scenario as last Sunday: no food in stock. I must go shopping now.

Padraig - we had a similar car journey leaving Malaga airport when we were trying to find the road to Granada and ended up in a very dodgy looking industrial estate asking directions from two locals who turned out to be irish. even worse when in your case you were trying to get TO the airport!

sorry about the mozzies - you have been very forbearing not mentioning them. on our last few trips i have religiously taken the mozzie repellant and cream, but not met a single one. but at the end of the last trip I had to jettison the stuff to save weight, so I'm expecting to be attacked next time!

loved your report - the antedote to over-planning.

wonderful report, Padraig. We travel the way you describe in the US ( yes, there are many places here worth absorbing by osmosis) and resist the urge to over plan overseas. It is sometimes difficult, though, as we cannot go often and can get pulled into wanting to "see things.
Your time sounds wonderful, a real vacation.

Sounds like a wonderful trip, Padraig, and I'm very jealous! But enjoying your trip vicariously was a wonderful way to spend the time just before getting ready for work. Thank you for a great report!

bmk to read later!