kak113

We're starting to think about starting a family and one thing I know will be most affected is our vacations. Since we've been engaged and married, we've been fortunate enough to go to Athens / Santorini, Rome, Paris, Prague, Brugges, South Africa, Zambia, and Egypt and are heading to the Galapagos this summer.

I'd love to get some views on where you've been in Europe with young family friendly trips and where you'd never dream of taking a young child - to help me think of where we might want to go sooner while we're child free and where we might look forward to going that I might be surprised to hear about.

Thanks!

pookymimi

I've not been in Europe with my kids yet, we are just leaving in two weeks, but as a Mother of 3 I've traveled all over South America with mine when little.

I don't know in which way my kids would've negatively affected my traveling. Nowadays you have the carrying backpacks that make every walking/hiking a breeze (something that I did miss with my oldest), with my youngest we've hiked traveled, etc and besides having to feed them and change them our trips have not been altered.

Woyzeck

kak113 - this is a great question. Very thoughtful and sure to spark a spirited discussion.

First of all, congratulations on the decision to start a family and good luck to you and your partner! I have a 3.5 year old daughter and it has changed my world.

This is just my two cents, so take it for what it's worth. I haven't, for the record, taken my daughter to Europe yet, although we are leaving in early June for a 2 week trip to Germany.

One thing that I have enjoyed in trip planning for a young child is seeing the places through her eyes. I've been to Berlin several times before, but now as I plan I am thinking of the things that would impress her. Fernsehturm, the spectacular gates and alters at the Pergamon Museum, castles and palace gardens (Charlottenburg, Sanssouci), the peacocks and romantic castle on Pfaueninsel, a river cruise, the Zoo and that polar bear, Knut. Things that I've already seen, I will be seeing anew. And I am drawn now to things I would probably never have tried before.

Here's the thing. On these pages, young children are often talked about abstractly. They are often viewed as a homogeneous group of impatient and difficult annoyances. In reality, they are unique and very special human beings with personalities. Believe it or not, travel has a lot to offer them. Travel has a lot to offer the relationship between a parent and young child. One thing that may surprise you is that you might not know which destinations would be most appropriate until you begin to raise your child and get to know them. My daughter loves cities, she loves being around people, she enjoys the bright lights and bustle and noise. I wouldn't have expected that before she was born.

That said, as relatively new parents, I think both my wife and I would recommend making your last trip before having a baby a pre-baby 2nd honeymoon in the most relaxing and romantic place you can find.

padams421

My kids have been all over Europe and have been traveling since they were infants. If you travel with your kids from the time they are born, it won't seem like such a big deal. I can't think of anywhere I wouldn't take kids except active war zones. Babies have a lot of gear but are actually quite portable. The most difficult stage is probably when they learn to walk and want the freedom to practice their new skill (which is not a good time to wander the streets of Rome). Where to go depends on the interests of you and your children. If I suggested a week of shopping in Paris boutiques, my sons (and husband) would roll their eyes and groan. Some of my friends' families would never go hiking in the Alps but we did and loved it.

StCirq

I took my kids to Europe in utero and every year thereafter (they are 20 and 23 now, and we still go). I think it's funny how people think there's something wasteful about taking kids to Europe. Except for the plane ride, which to be honest can be a bit trying, I don't see any difference in traveling with infants, toddlers, kids in Europe and traveling with them anywhere else, except, of course, that it might cost more. I truly have only seen benefits from my kids' extensive travel in Europe:

They speak fluent French
They can, and do, plan their own trips to foreign countries (and the USA) by themselves with ease and confidence
They know how to comport themselves at nice restaurants and other "proper" venues, and have known since they were fairly young
They are willing to try just about any food on earth and have a really wide-ranging palate
They have a much broader world view and understanding of the differences among cultures than many of their peers who've not traveled much or at all overseas
Their geography skills are admirable, and they are fantastic navigators


I'm sure there are more - those are just the ones that spring to mind.

They were never a nuisance to other travelers that I can remember, because we planned the trips "at their level." We saw practically every playground and rode on every carousel in France. We did kid things and never forced a museum or anything else on anyone (though both my kids fell in love with the Musée d'Orsay and Versailles at an early age, and one of them had to be torn away from a torture museum in the Italian Lakes), and the minute we saw any nuisance factor in the making, we moved on.

I agree I wouldn't take kids to a trouble spot in the world, but anywhere else, sure.

BigRuss

My toddler received more free s--- from waitstaff at restaurants. Dang hobbit-sized rock star.

Europeans are like everyone else, they love kids.

AtlTravelr

Okay - I'll go with the more negative view:

Ages 0-3 - wouldn't bring kids to Europe unless 1) we already lived there 2) had family in Europe 3)we were staying in one place for a very extended period of time

Ages 4-5 - depends on the child. My son was not really that adaptable as a toddler. Liked his own room, a set schedule. This changed when he was 5 and made all the difference in our ease of traveling.

The things that I found difficult traveling with my kids in the U.s are the same things I would find difficult in Europe except the plane ride & time change would be worse. As it was, our son was 9 our first trip and he was under dire threat of big punishment to even think about waking us during the flight over. I don't think I could keep a very young child quiet for a long flight and I certainly would want to get some sleep myself.

Hotels are horrible when your baby is crying - no matter where you are. It would have to be a house or apartment.

Best vacations for families with young children are either visiting family or summer beach vacations in a rented house/condo. You lug all the "stuff" to one place and spend all day outside. Your kids are happy and its an easy trip for all to enjoy.

We didn't stop traveling when our kids were little - one set of family was in Canada, another in California and we are in Atlanta. So it was always cross country trips. We did take short trips without out kids. I took my husband on his first Europe trip when our youngest was 4 - my parents came to take care of the kids. It was a little hard on me to leave them but we did 3 different 7-10 day trips before we took the kids with us.

And again, it is VERY dependent on your child - because some would be easier in terms of flexibility, food, etc. than others. All is not lost however, our very best trips were family trips to Europe when the kids were a little older - they liked most of the same things we did, were excited to be in new places, were interested in other people, etc. Their favorite country was Italy - very kids friendly with familiar food & good weather to be outdoors. England was also great since they could speak to locals. And the really great trips all included 1 week long stay in a rental - the kids loved going to the same bakery, pizzeria multiple times.

christycruz

Having traveled extensively before we had our daughter and afterwards, the only thing I miss is going out to a very nice restaurant, and taking my time in the museums.

When she was very small, we would stroller around until she was asleep, and then stop somewhere with outside seating. I still remember a fantastic summer dinner in Croatia with the waiter putting an extra blanket on my sleeping daughter. Now that she's older, I just don't want to put her through a multi-course extravaganza even though she'd try her best.

Funny enough, plane rides were the easiest things for her and for us, even when she was a baby.

Also, we travel much more slowly. We don't try to do five things in one day. It's usually one or two, tops.

christycruz

Oh, and I found her the very easiest to travel with when she was about 3 months old. We stuck to her schedule, but she slept a lot, and was happy just being close to us.

So, I don't know that I'd plan a big trip with a very young baby, but don't assume you have to be stuck at home either.

Lexma90

We've always done quite a bit of travelling with our kids (they are now 11 and almost 15yo), but didn't take them to Europe until they were 10yo. Before that, and even after we started taking them to Europe, we traveled quite a bit within the U.S.

In the U.S., we didn't do the typical rent-a-place-for-a-week trip, as we don't like to do that. But we did make sure we spent at least several days in one place. Most of our U.S. vacations were to cities and the surrounding areas. They both enjoy a variety of activites, but generally more on the cultural side. (We do a lot of active outdoor activities in our at-home, everyday life.) Our kids, even when younger, loved the cities: the hustle and bustle, riding public transportation, and how it was relatively easy to get to wherever we wanted to go.

We even took them to New Orleans, not generally a child-friendly place, because DH often had business meetings there. Even in N.O., there are lots of kid things to do. When they were very young, we had to be a bit selective about dinner places. But even from a relatively young age (4 1/2yo), they have been able to conduct themselves in nice restaurants and be interested in a variety of foods, which is important to us.

One thing I have noticed about our daughter, the 11yo (I guess I haven't asked the 15yo). When we describe trips we took with her when she was younger, if she doesn't remember the trip, she gets kind of annoyed. Understandably; if she doesn't remember going to New Orleans (or wherever) when she was 4yo, the trip doesn't exist for her. That's true whether or not we have fond memories of taking several carriage rides because she enjoyed them so much.

In the same vein, we took her on her first trip to Europe last fall, which she LOVED. I asked her the other day, in retrospect, which parts she enjoyed the most, and she still said EVERYTHING. She also told me - on her initiative - that she was glad she was older when she went the first time, because she'll remember more.

sap

It depends on the kid. As a blended family (his/hers/ours), we had three you could take anywhere at anytime; one who was usually okay, but hard to please; and one who invariably caused a problem as soon as he walked out the front door. He's a decent guy now, but we couldn't go anywhere for quite awhile. (I think he was stuck in the "terrible twos" for about 18 years.)

Chances are pretty good, you'll have great kids & have fun -- but parenthood is always a gamble.

Sally30

I think traveling with your kids is as much about your parenting style, and general comfort/anxiety level traveling, as it is about the children.

Obviously you need to take the child into account and some kids are better suited to travel than others but it depends on your adaptability too. Is it important to you that your child must eat/sleep/bathe at exactly the same time each day? Will you be comfortable feeding your kids different foods or are you going to feel compelled to bring things from home? If you try to replicate your home experience while traveling, no one will have fun. And don't get me wrong, some kids do need that continuity. If you are more of a go with the flow person (and your child is the same), traveling will be a breeze.

We have taken our 3 year old to Europe 3 times, Hawaii and elsewhere in the US. We live in the city (in the US) and getting on a subway or bus, eating in restaurants and going to museums are things we do at home. My husband, daughter and I are comfortable doing these same things when we travel. If I were to go camping on the other hand, with or without a kid, I would be nervous.

I am guessing that given your travel experience and willingness to even consider traveling with kids, you would enjoy it and so would your children. I would try a trip pretty early on then you will feel like you can do it and won't be hesitant to try. You will, however, have to give up on long leisurely meals and anything very fancy unless you can find a babysitter. but the other things you gain are well worth the trade!

hanl

Our daughter is 22 months old and so far we've been to Annecy, Lyon, Paris, the Ile de Ré, Puglia and Edinburgh with her. We live in Brussels so all of these places are a short hop away for us.

This summer we'll be going to Andalucia, New York and the Ile de Ré with her.

We try and rent apartments/self-catering accommodation if staying for a week or more, as that makes life a lot easier. For shorter stays, we've found that the Novotel or Pullman hotels in the Accor chain are very child friendly - they may not be chic or charming but the rooms are large, they have room service (very handy if your child is asleep and you want dinner!!), and the rooms tend to be pretty child-safe (no fixtures or fittings that baby could break or could injure her).

So I wouldn't hesitate to take my daughter anywhere in Europe really, as long as I had a decent sized hotel room for her to run around and a fridge/minibar to store food!

Elsewhere in the world, although I adore travelling in Southern Africa (am a real wildlife lover) I am going to wait until she's older before we take her there, or anywhere else that's in a malaria zone, as I don't fancy having to dose her up on anti-malarials and cover her in insect repellent all the time. Plus I think that wildlife holidays aren't great for little ones because they are all about being quiet, still and patient most of the time - not qualities I'd associate with your average toddler!

littlejane

A roundabout way of answering your question: where do I feel I wouldn't bring a child? I have a 3.5 year old so for me the question becomes what kind of holidays do you miss.

1. Quiet places, where you just want to sit back and relax. Not suitable for a child because they will just annoy you and everyone else. Examples: michelin starred restaurants, posh hotels, places like Oia in Santorini where you just want to chill out and take it all in, spa holidays.

2. Action holidays: like the Galapagos (very jealous of you on that one), safari, skiing etc. All great when kids are older but will be on hold for a few years, and when kids are older will be hugely expensive to bring them along.

3. "Difficult" places - anywhere really hilly with small cobbled streets - thinking again of Santorini, or a holiday we brought our little one on where we stayed at the top of a hill in Sintra outside Lisbon and were exhausted every night by the time we had wrestled the buggy / child down the hill to dinner.

alexislovesspain

Kak113

both of my kids got their passports when they were 10 months old. My daughter is already on her second one (they only last for 5 years), she has been to Spain twice, France, Mexico and Canada and my son has done all that and was in utero for one of the Spain trips. They took their first flights (US) at 4 months and 5 weeks, respectively.

My husband and I were not fortunate enough to travel as kids (big families), but we love to travel as adults, as it seems you do. Take the kids to Spain, they adore children. Move around a lot, to see the country side and don't pack a lot of gear .. a diaper bag and a Baby Bjorn, are the only real necessities.

As for the Galapagos, I too am jealous .. we do want to take our kids there, but are waiting just a couple more years, till they are stronger swimmers.

Enjoy .. alexis

kak113

thanks everyone for such interesting perspectives. I tend to lean towards trying it out earlier just to prove to ourselves we can do it and agree with the general points of slowing down a fair amount! I travel a great deal for work so it doesn't really stress me out, but very good points about working on a baby's schedule etc. to be considered.
I will cross my fingers that our child gets my laid back travel style and my husband's flexibility when it comes to food.

littlejane - your post made me laugh, I recall seeing someone carrying a pram up and down Palatine Hill on our most recent trip and thiking "I'm glad we came here now."