google "Sylvana Simons"

Do blacks ever play Piet or just white guys painted black?

I didn't know it had been that ugly Menachem.
Actually I was thinking that Dutch people would be known for their tolerance, having so many people from Indonesia and other countries...

(And I mean it, even if for once I say something positive about my neighbours ;-) )

PQ we have been celebrating zwater Piet since decades if not centuries, in every village since times when no black had ever been seen in Belgium.

The first black my family saw were the GI's who liberated our country in '44. Difficult to be racist when the first black you see is one who kicked out the hated Nazis and is furthermore distributing chocolate, something that had disappeared since years.

You have to put yourselves in the place of a black person with the Piet thing kinf of like 'Tintin au Congo' books my French son read when young -huge lips - a characticure mocking black Congolese.

In today's world Black Piet should be multi-colored Piet - why not a black Sinterklaas and white piet- just because ancient myths characterized blacks as inferior helpers today's world don't have to.

Times change times to move on. Tintin au Congo would not be tolerated today I think as a new book- same with Black Peter I would hope.

Interesting although I suppose it is a question of time before multi-coloured Pieten get the upper hand. I had an idea it was controversial - that much made our newspapers - but I didn't hear about the death threats. How unhappy around such a nice festival! Thanks for the response guys

Lavandula

https://www.google.com/search?q=tint...w=1745&bih=864

Tintin au Congo caricatures of natives - wonder if this book, writ by Herge, a Belgian who has his own museum I believe near Brussels, is still sold? Just curious really?

Every culture has its anachronisms. Last year (I think), our Aldi supermarkets had for sale children's books by Roald Dahl (of 'Charlie and the Chocolate Factory' fame), and I forget which one it was, but one book mentioned a female and called her a 'slut'. At the time of writing, that word, although derogatory, did not have the sexual connotations it has now - really just meant an untidy or unkempt female (and maybe even this meaning is unacceptable to some). However a number of complaints were swiftly made to Aldi and they pulled sales of the book very promptly. There was a lot of discussion about this in the local media (in particular radio had a feast on this), and a lot of people came out in favour of the Dahl book, saying that rather than banning the book, discussion of that word (meanings past and present) should be part of reading that book with your children - in other words, a point of education. I found it very interesting. Dahl is sort of untouchable for a lot of people, but the outcry was significant.

Lavandula

Of course Tintin au Congo is still sold !
I think the bible is still sold too and it has some weird passages by today's standards like where can I sell my daughter as a slave because ?
If you want to be politically correct you do as in Orwell's 1984 and rewrite history every day.
.

Can't we confine our comments to travel advice? The last several comments belong in the Lounge, if anywhere.

The Lounge is a closed shop - I find knowing about cultural things a neat thing about travel. Especially for someone going to Sinterklaas Parade - and the thread basically ended two weeks ago -was revived and got into tangents - what is the harm - a thread that was in Fodors black hole revived by, to me, interesting cultural insights.

Alas.
Poor mortals like me have no access to the lounge due to the decision of Fodors to keep it for a selected choice of people.
So either you tell me to shut up or coerce Fodors into reopening the lounge.

Should I sue somebody fir discrimination ?

Poor mortals like me have no access to the lounge due to the decision of Fodors to keep it for a selected choice of people.>

Yes we could never get the keen insights of these cultural things in a closed Lounge that is more like a coffee klatch with a dwindling number of members.

WhatHi:

I am very surprised Tintin au Congo and similar racist books are still bought let alone sold -it's like Amos 'n Andy in U.S.-popular TV 50s show casting blacks in unflattering caracatures and stereotypes -being lazy, stupid, crooked, etc. Never shown now even though was a funny popular show.

I think that if libraries carried copies of Tintin racist books they would be boycotted with protests.

Anyway thanks for the update on that.

In the Netherlands we have huge problems with the lack of acknowledgement of our colonial heritage.

Well at least at school we now learn that a ´few' blacks died during colonisation in Belgian Congo.
It was totally occulted when I was at school. Actually I read it on internet when I was above 40.

PQ I think it is good to keep such racist books as Tintin au Congo read. Because it was not racist at the time. A simple reflection on how people behaved and thought.
Keeping it visible should - should - be a good reminder of how we behaved in the past.
Maybe a word of explanation could be added.
But I think we must face our past. If we all were aware of the past some leaders would not be elected.

PQ I think it is good to keep such racist books as Tintin au Congo read. Because it was not racist at the time. A simple reflection on how people behaved and thought.>

not racist? May not have been perceived as racist by Belgians who as colonizers we learnt in school were the worst of the worst of European colonizers in Africa -leaving nearly no improvements and just sapping it - Brits and French too but we we taught Belgians and Leopolds were the worst.

Yes I hope the books are read in context- yet I recall my son reading them with me (in his French mum's house) and seeing monkeys instead of blacks.

And Captain Haddock - he was a nice booze-swirling role model for kids.

How times have changed.

And the USA were no angels either.

Cheers - back to reading Tintin au Amerique where Indians (native Americans) were made to look both ferocious and foolish. Our western movies and tv shows did likewise.

Interesting discussion.