We are an American family of four - 2 adults and 2 kids, 14 and 15. We're nervous about driving in the UK (also we can only drive auto transmission). So we'd like to train trains throughout the UK. We'll be staying in London for a week. We'd like to take a couple of day trips, e.g. to Salisbury/Stonehenge and Oxford, and then take the train to Holyhead for the ferry to Ireland. I have been trying to compare fares for the Britrail passes, Britrail point-to-point, and Southwest trains, and I'm going nuts. Point to point seems incredibly expensive, and Southwest isn't much better. It seems that a 4-day Consecutive Pass may be our best option but I can't tell. Can you offer any advice? Also, Britrail talks about "child" and "youth" but doesn't define those terms. Sometimes they say a child is "between 5 and 15" and other times they say "under 15" so I'm not sure what that means for my 15-year-old.

Thanks so much for any help.

See if the Southern DaySave pass appeals to you. It covers a lot of the southeast, and connects with other lines to such places as Bath.

The best part is that you can travel anywhere in the network for a day and adults only pay &pound;10 (4/&pound;20), or <b>&pound;1</b> for under 16s.

Here's the spiel: southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=189

The T&amp;C are here: http://southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=250

Daytrips by train to Oxford, Bath and such are easy - relatively expensive for a family of four, yes, but easy to do. From Bath you can reach Salisbury, Stonehenge, etc. But taking the train to Holyhead? I travelled from London to Llandudno by rail several years ago and it was an excruciatingly slow, long journey, and very expensive besides. If I were you, I'd look into flying to Dublin.

Britrail appears to be a French-owned American company that makes its money by quoting absurdly extortionate prices for point to point tickets and therefore conning you into spending a fortune for 'all you can travel' passes you never use properly.

<b> There's no one strategy for travelling round Britain </b>, but to take the specific examples you quote:

- to get to Dublin, fly. Train/ship takes forever, is pricey and is scenic for only a very short proportion of the trip (the bit across Anglesey)

- for Oxford from London, bus is cheapest. Good value on the routes branded Oxford Espress or the Oxford Tube (google them): cheapest of all, advance booking on Megabus for specific times

- for Salisbury/Stonehenge, you'll probably find the lowest prices by buying one Network Card or Family &amp; Friends Card for &pound;24 and leaving after 9.15 or thereabouts - thus getting a 33% reduction on the already low offpeak prices. Go to www.nationalrail.co.uk, and feed in a journey a week or so away from today, then play with different times and see the difference it makes

- if all you want to do is go to Salisbury/Stonehenge and Oxford, giving up this quixotic idea of Holyhead, 'all you can travel' passes are a complete waste of money.

<b> The crucial thing about a holiday that's essentially London plus a few daytrips is to ignore recommendations from people touting passes or single-supplier solutions </b>
Or at the very least, cost your specific plans on the basis of the Network Card-discounted fares quoted on the National Rail site.

And simply ignore the downright fraudulent claims Britrail makes about point to point prices.

Thanks all, this is a whole new way to look at things. I'm currently pricing flights.

I'm having issues with the Southern Railway site but will keep trying.

One thought we had originally was to stop overnight on the way to Holyhead, e.g. Stratford-upon-Avon. Now I'm thinking we could do Stratford as a daytrip or overnight instead - any recommendations?

You guys are great.

For whatever reason flanneruk hates trains in his own country, so don't take it as set in stones comments he makes. I used my Britrail pass for 8 days and just returned yesterday. In spite of the snow from Scotland to London I made every connection. The Brits were very envious when we compared ticket cost. 1st class average of 30 pounds per day good for any train at any time. So, it works for me. Flanneruk takes a horrid commute train daily into London so he bases his experience on that trip. I did trains from Aberdeen to London with stops at many places on the way. Great fun in spite of the miserable weather.

The 4-consecutive day BritRail England railpass is a tremendous bargain IMO for what you envision - especially since your kids get a free pass to match what the adults buy

and none of the frustrating looking for online discounts that peg you into a certain train or have restrictions on trains you can board, off-peak conditions, etc.

The railpass allows you to board any train anytime - just hop on - fully flexible tickets are often exorbitant - as you apparently have seen on nationalrail.co.uk

Kids under 16 get free passes - one for each accompanying adult. Thus the chid's fare 5-15 applies only to a couple having more than two kids or kids traveling on their own. The free Family Pass that is issued with the adults' passes requires only that a kid be under 16 and traveling with adults - but only one free kid per adult.

Also consider the England Railpass Flexi - costs more per day of travel then the 4-consecutive day pass but gives you an overall 2-month validity period in case you do not want to lump all your train days together. Passes are not sold in UK stations cause Brits cannot use them - only for foreign tourists and really no comparable, in price at least, all-lines pass available locally.

The BritEngland railpass can be used on all of the 28 or so independent British rail franchises - there are no 'BritRail' trains but the pass can be used on any train on any franchise anytime you want. Even if you bought individual tickets with the most several restrictions i think you would possible just save a few pounds - at an incredible cost of losing flexibility and having to make advance arrangments. Some great sources of info on British trains and railpasses: www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com - the last one has a free phone consultation where you can ask questions like you did in your OP of experts IME. And yes do check out www.nationalrail.co.uk to compare possible fares - if you don't save a lot then IMO go for the complete flexibility of hopping impromptuly on any of zillions of daily English trains.

Britrail BTW is not a French-owned American company as erroneously reported above (it's actually a Canadian company based in Quebec)

I said BritEngland Pass because it is cheaper than a BritRail Pass, thinking that you are only going thru a small section of Wales - from just beyond Chester to Holyhead

check Chester to Holyhead fares on nationalrail.co.uk and then compare to adding those fares onto the cost of a BritEngland Railpass and the BritRail Pass, which would include Wales.

Yes indeed all that bluster from flanner about passes never being a good deal is simply a bunch of rubbish.

like roger i have had BritRail Passes for years and always have found them a great deal - esp the hop on at will aspect.

If you do fly to Dublin then the only pass you would look into would be the London Plus Pass - which gives unrestricted train access to all the cities you mention - including Stratford and even to Bath.

You could use it to get to Bath, to me England's finest city - stay there and then buy a regular ticket to go to Holyhead, not that fr away.

The London Plus Pass also gives transfer from London airports on the Airport Express trains that can be used outside the validity of the pass. A 4-day London Plus Pass would be hard to beat for four day trips - esp if you want to end up in Bath, on Ireland's doorstep practically (and actually see the country from the train rather than just more airports)

Locals like flanner are often a wealth of advice but it seems when talking of trains at least he often has blinders on - to say a pass is always a waste of money is simply rubbish IMO. (It may be and all the fares are at nationalrail.co.uk to compare - and do not underestimate the total flexibility aspect of the pass vs restricted discounted tickets (where if you miss that train you are out of luck and then have tobuy a full-fare ticket)

&quot;flanneruk hates trains in his own country&quot;.
Bollocks

&quot;Flanneruk takes a horrid commute train daily&quot;
Triple bollocks in spades

If the only way you can make your case is to attack - with spectacular inaccuracy in this case - someone else's motives, you're simply incapable of making a case.

Which probably means your case isn't worth making.

Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a daytrip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddly squat about this country's geography and transport system

Or both.

Hi aj345 - I just wanted to chime in and agree that flying to Ireland is definitely the way to go. I did the Holyhead-Dublin ferry about ten years ago, when we had a big group with a chartered coach. It was sort of a novelty for awhile, but got old quick - I'd take flying any day. If you're unfamiliar, check flights with RyanAir and Easyjet. They're budget airlines with very tight restrictions and fees on baggage, but depending on your luggage situation, they can be a great way to go.

Others are much more knowledgeable about passes than I am, but I've done point-to-point in the UK and it doesn't have to cost a fortune, as long as you plan ahead. As flanner suggests, start with nationalrail.co.uk. That site consolidates the different companies' prices and schedules, and then will point you to sites where you can actually purchase the tickets.

(For what it's worth, I didn't think Stratford was that exciting, but that's just me. If you're interested in Shakespeare, it might be great, but if not, there may be some other suggestions, depending on your interests.)

&lt;Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a daytrip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddly squat about this country's geography and transport system&gt;

including you i guess for making this blanket statement

I require flexibility - meaning i want to go to the train station and hop on the next train

The fully flexible train fare London to Holyhead is 120 pounds or about $190 or so in 2nd class

then are you saying that i can flexibly travel to both Stratford and Oxford for $9? Because that is just what you are saying

A four-day consecutive BritRail Pass like OP was considering is currenty $199 p.p. (and kids go FREE)

So for flexible travel as i require i pay $190 just for the London-Holyhead train - no way can i do a day trip to Oxford (even by slow bus) or take a train to Stratford and then to Holyhead for $9

Flanner explain to me, for my requirements how the following quote from you is not just pure baloney?

&lt;Anyone who seriously believes there's one pass that makes any kind of sense for a train trip to Salisbury, a day trip to Oxford and a single journey to Holyhead either can't add up or knows tiddily squat about this country's geography and transport system&gt;

That said if my requirements were less and i wanted to pin myself down then i'd think you may be right (if i could get the cheapest fares) - so my quibble with you is lumping everyone together and blankedly saying it is foolish to contemplate a railpass for these trips. And i like to travel first class - in that case the first class flexible fare London to Holyhead would be i'm sure more than the whole cost of a 4-day pass.

The mistake some folks not familiar with the British rail fare structure is automatically considering a pass - and you are correct in alerting them to the other options as you superbly do - but do NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater in saying as you often do that passes never make a good idea - it depends on several factors.

After more thought I think part of the difference is the fact that flanneruk lives there and his plans most likely are more flexible than a tourist. So if I am in London, as a tourist and decide to train to Durham at a whim,I have to pay through the nose for an expensive ticket With a pass,any train, any time and a set cost. For the record I departed Aberdeen to Edinburgh, 1st class, then a Virgin train to Carlisle, 1st class and then the Northern train to St. Bee's. No reservations, no pre- booked tickets,and my fully flexible cost was the daily average of 30 pounds.

Amazing. I don't think I've ever seen this many people so interested in helping me that they are actually willing to fight about it. I've had bosses who were less interested. Old boyfriends. My parents. No kidding.

I spent a LOT of time on the nationalrail site today, and I am still considering the options. Although the savings are great, you give up flexibility as PalenQ points out. I think the 4-day Consecutive pass would be worthwhile if we stayed over two nights on the way to Holyhead, which will also break up the long trip. And thank you PalenQ also for confirming that my 15-year-old would go free. That means our total for all train travel would be $518 - $259 per adult - and we'd have to do a lot less planning, see more of the country, and not commit to specific dates and times.

If we do fly, we would certainly consider the London Plus Pass instead.

Thanks all for the help, and making me laugh, and forcing me to learn what IMO and OP stand for.

Cheers
Andrea

Another vote for flying to Dublin - getting the train &amp; ferry will be a tedious journey and almost certainly cost a lot more.

And I do admit to hating British trains - overcrowded, unreliable, horrible loos, inadequate catering... For interest, it was mentioned in the House of Lords earlier this week that the east coast main line has got even worse since the change of operator and is now &quot;a third class service&quot;. Regrettably I was at the station yesterday (cheaper &amp; more reliable than booking online) buying overpriced tickets for somewhere I can't fly. (More expensive to get the train to Sheffield &amp; back than to fly to Paris &amp; back.)

&quot;You could use it to get to Bath... then buy a regular ticket to go to Holyhead, not that fr away.&quot; ?!? According to the AA it's 268 miles.

aj, if you are considering breaking the journey to Holyhead, could I suggest Chester as the stop? It puts you fairly close to Holyhead and is an interesting place itself. The rows are interesting explore and there is a zoo that I enjoyed more than the London zoo, though this was a while ago, and is just my opinion.

If you are interested in castles, Conwy might be the place to overnight. It is in Wales and less than an hour from Holyhead. Conwy has its own castle and town walls. there are three other castles within an easy journey of Conway. Harlech is a scenic tain ride away. On the way, hop off and visit a slate mine in Blenau Fetiniog. Then catch the steam train down to the shore. Caernarvon is a bus trip away. Beaumaris is also nearby. Conwy and the other three mentioned are all medieval built by Edward I in his efforts to subdue the Welsh. Penrhyn castle is a Victorian creation, but an interesting look at a bygone lifestyle and a good collection of toys, especially dolls and doll houses. Bangor's cathedral has a Bible garden, all the plants mentioned in the Bible, all well labeled. Bodnant Gardens are near Conwy and are a wonderful place to visit.

Another choice might be to make Bath your overnight on the way to Ireland. From Bath you could go on to Fishguard in Wales and take the ferry to Rosslaire in Ireland and then take the train to Dublin or begin your Irish journey in Wexford.

I believe that if you go to the National Rail site you can buy point to point tickets very cheaply, if you wait until you are within 60 days of the journey. At any rate, that is what we did, and we traveled from London to York for about &pound;35 for the two of us.

And simply ignore the downright fraudulent claims Britrail makes about point to point prices.&gt;

What fraudulent claims - they advertise 'British Open Tickets' and if you compare those prices to fully flexible 'open' tickets sold in the U.K. you will often find that they are not overpriced at all.

Recently took a train to Manchester from London with my BritRail Pass and there was an announcement for passengers to be sure they were on the right train if they had train-specific (discounted tickets flanner mentions) or they would be charge the full standard class (2nd) class one-way fare of about 130 pounds (or some ridiculously high figure) - at that time about $270! I would be that BritRail's price for similarly open fully flexible fares would be less actually. (And a 4-day railpass was $199 - for 4 days of fully flexible travel!)

So flanner is comparing apples to oranges when he harangues about BritRail posting absurd pricing - comparing highly restricted perhaps impossible to book fares with 'open fares' or fully flexible fares.

Yes apples to oranges - flanner should also aim his cannon at Britain's own rail franchises who do charge ridiculously high fares for open tickets, much like BritRail.com hawks.

Perhaps BritRail should point out that much cheaper tickets exist, with drawbacks - good point

but would flanner the merchandiser guru put signs in his stores that 'customers can buy the same product at a competitor a few doors down' - think NOT.

The real problem is why Britain's privatized rail franchises are allowed to themselves charge such obscenely high open fares - such as the 130 quid each way to Manchester and why Brits like flanner don't equally decry that.

a bit of hypocrisy it seems. And there has been discussion in Britain of leveling out the huge fare discrepancy to encourage more spontaneous train travel. Now if you do not book a long-distance train in advance - far in advance perhaps - then you face an enormous walk up fare, which discourages spontaenous travel.

Well anyway with fully flexible open fares often being so astronomically high a railpass becomes a better deal then ever - for what it gets you fully flexible travel - hop any train any time.

There are more aspects to railpasses than flanner seems to judge them buy - comparing them to discounted tickets with stringent restrictions. Even on a day trip to Stratford the cheaper fares typically (i have not looked up Stratford specifically) restrict your outbound travel before 9:30am Mon-Fri - and many folk would like to start earlier than 9:30 for a day trip a few hours each way by train, etc.

Don't judge efficacy of railpasses by comparing them to the cheapest possible means of carriage IMO - full flexibility is a HUGE perk.

I did some comparisons while preparing for an upcoming trip, and found that for a single person traveling without children, the Britrail passes are a waste of money. The passes are very overpriced for most people who are traveling alone.

On the other hand, families traveling with children may find the passes worthwhile. Even so, the locations aj345 mentions (Salisbury, Oxford) are so close to London that Britrail pass may still not be cost-effective, especially if he wants to spread his daytrips out over more than a 4 day time period.

There are very cheap train/ship fares for journeys between Britain and Ireland. Irish Ferries charge &pound;27 from London to Dublin via Holyhead (&quot;sail rail&quot. Their fare from Holyhead to Dublin seems to be &pound;25, so the train journey is almost free.
http://www.irishferries.com/fares-of...om-britain.asp