"<i>and there is a neat roof-top cafeteria with nice views over the Thames.</i>"

The cafeteria is on the ground floor. The one on the top floor is the posh, full-service restaurant.

and there is a neat roof-top restaurant that did not seem at all posh when I was there - I would call it a glorified snack bar - but you need not buy anything to take in the views. Oh well for London it could be 'posh'!

and St Paul's cathedral is just a short walk over the new pedestrian bridge from right in front of the Tate Modern - so say you wanted to substitute St Paul's for something it is a few-minute stroll of the route you have outlined.

You are probably talking about the espresso bar/sandwich shop which is on the 4th floor--not the top floor . . . .

The 7th floor restaurant won't be confused for a cafeteria.

Kids a certain age and under travel free. I think the age is 10 and under as I recall because we did not need a travel card for my son when we went a couple of years ago.

Wrenwood--I also highly recommend London Walks tours. We went on the Royal London tour that included a perfect spot for viewing the changing of the guard without standing there for hours and it went inside Westminster Abbey for a brief but well guided 45 minutes.

The free London museums are fabulous and also should not be missed. The Tate Modern though was my least favorite. The British Museum and National Gallery were at the top of my list along with the V&A and Imperial War Museum (IWM charges a small fee for special exhibits but they are well worth it). Some museums are open late on certain evenings. We went on a Friday night to the National Portrait Gallery and we happened upon an art class which we all joined. It was fun. We didn't get to see much of the museum but my son had fun in the class.

janisj and europeannovice: I was told my 14 year old was eligible for the child travelcard. Also both parties need National Rail tickets to use the 2FOR1 vouchers, so even if a child is 10 or under he/she would need a ticket. It is very confusing because it seems the zone 1-2 7 day travelcards are essentially the same thing and same price whether purchased at a Tube station or a National Rail station, the only difference is a printed logo. And since people who live in London can get the 2FOR1 discounts by buying a single rail ticket, I really don't see why travelers coming from outside the UK shouldn't be able to get them also, just as a practical matter it is confusing. Especially since I kept getting bounced back to the TfL site from NR when trying to purchase the travelcards.

Back to my question: does anyone know (for sure) whether unused travelcards are refundable if they do indeed turn out to be the wrong kind??

You <u>cannot</u> buy a TFL travelcard ahead of time to use for the 2for1's. It will NOT have the logo.

"<i>And since people who live in London can get the 2FOR1 discounts by buying a single rail ticket, I really don't see why travelers coming from outside the UK shouldn't be able to get them also,</i>"

I have no idea what this means. You also can buy a single rail ticket. What would stop you?

I don't think you would save very much w/ the child photocard, since there is a £10 processing fee and you'd lose out on having rail logo tickets for the 2for1's

mdieri, of course visitors from overseas can buy a paper travelcard from a national rail company. It's just that you don't need to buy them before entering the country, just as residents - by definition - don't. If you do try to buy one in advance, they ask you for a "home station" to know where you want to pick it up from.

TfL has a visitors' travelcard available for advance purchase from abroad - it may be that they thought you were (or ought to be) enquiring about that. Since TfL doesn't take part in the 2for1 promotion, its staff wouldn't be expected to know all the ins and outs of buying a travelcard from a national rail company, beyond the fact that it covers the same <i>travel</i> services as one issued by TfL.

Thanks, all. I was trying to buy in advance since my understanding was that I would need a child photocard to get the child's rate on a 7 day pass. Also that if I bought when I got there, I would get an oystercard with the 5-10 pound deposit etc. But possibly I was given misinformation by the TfL site. It's just that on the National Rail site I kept getting bounced back to TfL.

So, does anyone know if the travelcards (if I get the wrong kind) are refundable? I was just trying to not have to hassle with going to a NR station on our first jet-lagged day.

And janisj, why would *I* buy a single use rail ticket every day??? No need to reply, you've been so helpful already.

"<i>And janisj, why would *I* buy a single use rail ticket every day??? No need to reply, you've been so helpful already.</i>"

I'll ignore the snark and explain. You may want to get yourselves PAYG Oysters, but on a certain day you plan on visiting a couple of the 2for1 sites. You'd simply go to <i>any</i> train station and buy a one day travelcard. Problem solved.

No, Janisj, I don't want to buy oysters, my entire line of questioning on this site has been on how to get a NR travelcard. I didn't need you to explain how and why to buy a one day rail ticket but thanks anyway.


Does anyone else know whether travelcards are refundable? the TfL customer service response to my question was that the travelcards I purchased online would have the logo, but I just want to know my options in case he/she gave me wrong information.

Hi mdieri

I feel your frustration and it is a confusing topic.

Bottom line, I don't think whether if anyone here believes the travelcards are refundable or not will change what you do. You more than likely would have to return them in person at this stage (I assume) and you can simply ask a ticket agent at that time. I suspect not but I don't really know.

However, at this point, you would still have to return them, track down a NR station and re-buy the travelcards for the same 7-days. Is that really worth it?

At this point, I would recommend forgetting about the 7-day travelcards since you already have some. If you have some big ticket 2for1's that you want to do (e.g. Tower of London) you can decide on a case-by-case basis if it is worth the money/hassle to buy a 1-day NR card for that 2for1.

Note, if it's just you and your 14 year old (who will get a reduced admission) I doubt it will be.

My advice? Let it go. Your spending thousands on this trip don't let &pound;10-20 ruin it.

I hope you have a good vacation/holiday in London. It's a great place to visit.

Thanks, Indy Dad, I will just wait and see when the travelcards arrive whether they have the NR logo. The savings do add up to more that 10-20 pounds so I will just try to exchange them when I get to London if necessary, although it won't ruin the trip either way. Most of the frustration (besides TfL) was from thick-headed, un-useful "advice" from people on the site who've spent 1-2 weeks in England some time in the past so are now "experts." So thanks for your kind words.

"Also both parties need National Rail tickets to use the 2FOR1 vouchers, so even if a child is 10 or under he/she would need a ticket"

Children ten and under do not need to pay for transportation, as long as they travel with a paying adult, and their tickets at venues are usually half price anyway so what would you be saving with the 2 for 1 offer--only the half price admission? Why pay for transportation for a child who does not need to pay for transportation just so you can "save" the half price of admission to a venue. Just pay the half price admission and be done. When you add it all up in that case you do not save much.

If the child is older than 10 and under 15 they are required to purchase a transportation pass but I still think they might be eligible for half price admission to most venues.

By the way, I fit into the category of having spent only 1-2 weeks in England and by no means do I consider myself an expert. I am just passing on advice of my own experiences to help someone else. If the remark was meant for Janisj, I believe from my readings of previous posts, that she lived in the UK for about five years.

Unlike some of those who are posting, I've lived in Britain for well over 60 years, but have never used a 2 for 1 offer. However, I think it's time to repeat my previous messages about these offers and why they exist, as some American visitors seem to get frustrated by the terms and conditions.

The 2 for 1 offers are designed to encourage people to travel by train to various attractions round the country. They are not just for attractions in London, since they are available for other cities and towns as well. There are probably 30 million people living within a 2-3 hour train journey of London. Getting some of them to use less-crowded off-peak trains is a good idea.

The rule is that you have to possess a National Rail ticket to use the 2 for 1 offer, but what is a National Rail ticket? Someone travelling in from Woking or Windsor would have a National Rail ticket, so it was decided that any ticket with a National Rail logo is valid. For the person already in London, the best way to get a National Rail ticket is to buy a travelcard, since that can also be used to get to the attraction. Transport for London do not participate in this offer, so their tickets don't count.

When a visitor who is already staying in London takes advantage of the 2 for 1 offer, they are exploiting a loophole in the arrangements. That is the reason for the confusion and frustration.

Except the loophole is that the visitor has spent quite a lot on BA and train to/from Heathrow in order to see those attractions...

That isn't a loophole. That's normality. The 2for1s are a promotion by the companies that run mainline trains to increase their off-peak business; neither they nor the attractions concerned are obliged to offer it, or to do so on terms and conditions that they don't consider necessary from the point of view of their business.

Point is, it shouldn't be characterized as a "loophole" or somehow unfair for overseas visitors, or residents based in London, to have access to the 2 for one deals on offer, as long as they meet the requirements. That's all. Some customers who were not the original target of the promotion may use it, but that happens with every marketing promotion or discount scheme ever devised, and it's not somehow unfair or unsporting of those customers to use it.

You protest too much. It's not illegal or wrong to make use of the 2 for 1 offers, but overseas tourists seem to have a lot of difficulty in understanding which tickets are valid and which are not.

If you were travelling to London by train from Coventry, and so were the intended market for this offer, the rules would be quite simple. The rules only become complex when you are not part of the target market, and are already in London.

Since the vast majority of visitors to, say, St Paul's Cathedral, will travel there by public transport, there is no point in giving them all a discount. So not all public transport tickets carry the entitlement, only those that meet certain criteria. National Rail tickets do, and Transport for London tickets do not.

>>it shouldn't be characterized as a "loophole" or somehow unfair for overseas visitors, or residents based in London<<

No-one's saying it's unfair that those people can take advantage of the promotion - merely trying to explain that it isn't unfair or over-complicating the issue if the promoters aren't going to go out of their way to run it or explain it with those people in mind. From their point of view, that would be to letting the tail wag the dog.