to not offend
Jul 14th, 2008, 11:01 PM
#101
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There really is a long-standing English belief that referring to people present in the third person is ill-mannered. Practically the only etiquette I was ever taught as a child was that you use "she" only to refer to a cat's mother.
Now I think about it, it's the only foreign habit that I've ever found offensive, and under certain circumstances it ALWAYS upsets. But not always: when there's half a dozen round a table, "yes but he's always saying that" is perfectly OK (as, in most cases, is "he's always churning out half-baked nonsense like that": pulling punches is unEnglish).
It's very difficult to define the circumstances under which it's offensive, and is probably best avoided till you've intuited what those circumstances are.
Using "sir" and "ma'am" is a charming - nay, quaint - Deep South idiosyncracy which at worst mildly amuses. Unnecessary or overfamiliar use of Christian names is mildly irritating, but no more. EXCEPT when used by hospital workers to patients over 50, which is grossly offensive and demeaning: but few North American visitors could afford to work as nurses here anyway.
Any tourist guide who thinks we don't talk on the tube is a complete wally.
Now I think about it, it's the only foreign habit that I've ever found offensive, and under certain circumstances it ALWAYS upsets. But not always: when there's half a dozen round a table, "yes but he's always saying that" is perfectly OK (as, in most cases, is "he's always churning out half-baked nonsense like that": pulling punches is unEnglish).
It's very difficult to define the circumstances under which it's offensive, and is probably best avoided till you've intuited what those circumstances are.
Using "sir" and "ma'am" is a charming - nay, quaint - Deep South idiosyncracy which at worst mildly amuses. Unnecessary or overfamiliar use of Christian names is mildly irritating, but no more. EXCEPT when used by hospital workers to patients over 50, which is grossly offensive and demeaning: but few North American visitors could afford to work as nurses here anyway.
Any tourist guide who thinks we don't talk on the tube is a complete wally.
Jul 14th, 2008, 11:55 PM
#102
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,997
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These postings are 'folk lore' or 'urban legends'. The English are so busy with their own lives that tourists and their quirky behavior never register on them. The only thing that I ever noticed bothering locals were tourists (from anyplace) talking loudly on the bus. Americans used to be considered the least apt as guests but now it is the Japanese. I seriously doubt that even if you tried you could offend or upset anyone in your London travels. Everything that could offend has been done so many times that no one pays any attention anymore. Stand back and watch the behavior of viewers at the, Trooping of the Guard. Take pictures of tourists trying to distract uniformed guards in sentry boxes. Better yet, analyse behavior on your home turf. What offends you?
Jul 15th, 2008, 02:59 AM
#103
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow oh2doula, I'm shocked. Why worry? just come and enjoy your stay in the UK. No rules, just be considerate of others and use common sense. As for the Americans having no manners, I beg to differ. We have travelled all over the US and have found almost all to be polite. I love the way many youngsters call me and hubby "ma'am" and "sir". We also find the New York "bad attitude" amusing as they almost think they have a reputation to live up to!!
So, have fun in the UK. It's a great place. If you offend anyone,don't worry, just laugh about it.Humour is one of our strong points. It takes all sorts to make a world as they say.
So, have fun in the UK. It's a great place. If you offend anyone,don't worry, just laugh about it.Humour is one of our strong points. It takes all sorts to make a world as they say.
Jul 15th, 2008, 03:21 AM
#104
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jul 16th, 2008, 12:06 AM
#105
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is hilarious and brings back many memories of great times in the US. A personal one which always causes problems for me is "butter". If I ask for butter, I get strange looks, I do "spreading on bread" actions, moo like a cow,etc. but to no avail. I now realise I have to ask for "budder".
Jul 16th, 2008, 03:19 AM
#106
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Marly, I've always liked a very similar story I heard on the radio here...
Englishwoman : I'd like to buy some batteries please.
NYC shopkeeper : Never heard of 'em.
Englishwoman (thinking furiously how to describe batteries, before inspiration arrives) : Bedderies ! I want bedderies !
Shopkeeper : Oh bedderies - why'nt you say so before !
Englishwoman : I'd like to buy some batteries please.
NYC shopkeeper : Never heard of 'em.
Englishwoman (thinking furiously how to describe batteries, before inspiration arrives) : Bedderies ! I want bedderies !
Shopkeeper : Oh bedderies - why'nt you say so before !
Jul 16th, 2008, 03:49 AM
#107
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P.S. I was also brought up to refer to a big wheel and with the "cat's mother" thing.
Re "'sir'... is far more agreeable than being called 'mate' by somebody you have never met before as now happens here regularly". If you go to the north of England, don't be upset if you are addressed as "love" !
And to get back to the original question : most people wouldn't find it offensive but they'll probably laugh incredulously if you refer to your fanny or fanny pack.
Re "'sir'... is far more agreeable than being called 'mate' by somebody you have never met before as now happens here regularly". If you go to the north of England, don't be upset if you are addressed as "love" !
And to get back to the original question : most people wouldn't find it offensive but they'll probably laugh incredulously if you refer to your fanny or fanny pack.
Jul 16th, 2008, 04:58 AM
#108
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The same day I read this entertaining thread (thank you, oh2doula), I came upon two references to the third person cat's mother issue! One in a british mystery (Ghost in the Machine), and one in the DVD of The Duchess of Duke Street (Gemma James). In the second, two of the staff are talking about Louisa, "she", and Louisa enters the room at the end of the sentence and says "Who is she, the cat's mother?"
So could someone clarify for me?: The use of he or she is considered impolite only if that person is present? Thanks all. J.
So could someone clarify for me?: The use of he or she is considered impolite only if that person is present? Thanks all. J.
Jul 16th, 2008, 05:28 AM
#109
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure anyone can clarify the cat's mother.
It used to be thrown at me quite arbitrarily: you'd come back from doing the shopping, mention you'd met Mrs Soandso and "she was asking after you", and you'd get this cat's mother thing thrown at you.
It never made any sense: if all use of 'she' was wrong, why did someone invent the word? And it was always 'she': NEVER 'he'
So let's accept it's a red herring, or one of those phrases that just comes into English every now and then (somewhere, there's an article about how "shocking hat" became widely used as a put down in the 19th century).
The substantial issue is third-person reference. This is more than etiquette: there's a certain American use of "he" when I'm in the conversation that sounds (at least to me) as deliberately designed to be offensive as if the speaker had said "this fat English pillock". Actually worse: to an English ear, "this fat English pillock" sounds like standard banter.
It doesn't happen at introduction. "This is flanneruk: he's giving the presentation tomorrow" sounds just fine. But what really grates is this kind of thing:
American 1: "The dollar's just collapsed again"
Me: "Only against the euro: our currency's going down as fast as yours"
American 2 "He's from England", where a Briton would say "flanner's from England"
It sounds really silly to get riled. We don't: but, to use the jargon of the victimhood industry, we feel we're being demeaned.
Now if, say, a Frenchperson did it, you'd just assume their English was weak. From a native English speaker, it sounds as if you're being deliberately offensive.
It used to be thrown at me quite arbitrarily: you'd come back from doing the shopping, mention you'd met Mrs Soandso and "she was asking after you", and you'd get this cat's mother thing thrown at you.
It never made any sense: if all use of 'she' was wrong, why did someone invent the word? And it was always 'she': NEVER 'he'
So let's accept it's a red herring, or one of those phrases that just comes into English every now and then (somewhere, there's an article about how "shocking hat" became widely used as a put down in the 19th century).
The substantial issue is third-person reference. This is more than etiquette: there's a certain American use of "he" when I'm in the conversation that sounds (at least to me) as deliberately designed to be offensive as if the speaker had said "this fat English pillock". Actually worse: to an English ear, "this fat English pillock" sounds like standard banter.
It doesn't happen at introduction. "This is flanneruk: he's giving the presentation tomorrow" sounds just fine. But what really grates is this kind of thing:
American 1: "The dollar's just collapsed again"
Me: "Only against the euro: our currency's going down as fast as yours"
American 2 "He's from England", where a Briton would say "flanner's from England"
It sounds really silly to get riled. We don't: but, to use the jargon of the victimhood industry, we feel we're being demeaned.
Now if, say, a Frenchperson did it, you'd just assume their English was weak. From a native English speaker, it sounds as if you're being deliberately offensive.
Jul 16th, 2008, 05:31 AM
#110
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
caroline - if I was called 'love' by another man, in the North or any where else, I would firstly be quite surprised, and secondly, certainly know where the other party intended the relationship to go. Thankfully it has never happened.
'Love' 'Duck' 'Darling' 'Dear' etc tend to be used by women of a certain age to those younger than themselves and are not offensive.
However, the use of 'mate' is becoming widespread in shops, pubs and other businesses when it appears to be beneath some spotty youth's dignity to call me 'sir' as I subsidise his wages. I particularly don't like it when having my hair cut, and said youth is touching me, the two of us never having met before. That's why I am attracted by the American usage of 'sir', and, if I may be so bold, the 'quaint' old-fashioned manners of the southern states.
'Love' 'Duck' 'Darling' 'Dear' etc tend to be used by women of a certain age to those younger than themselves and are not offensive.
However, the use of 'mate' is becoming widespread in shops, pubs and other businesses when it appears to be beneath some spotty youth's dignity to call me 'sir' as I subsidise his wages. I particularly don't like it when having my hair cut, and said youth is touching me, the two of us never having met before. That's why I am attracted by the American usage of 'sir', and, if I may be so bold, the 'quaint' old-fashioned manners of the southern states.
Jul 16th, 2008, 05:50 AM
#111
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the attempt, flanneruk. At the risk of beating a dead horse (animal metaphors galore), if folks were talking about your position on currency while you were not in the room, could they refer to you once by name and as 'he' from then on? Does the rule apply only when the person is present?
Jul 16th, 2008, 06:05 AM
#113
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Does the rule apply only when the person is present? "
Well, I'm arguing there's no rule. The Louisa example you quote is incomprehensible - though I used to get attacked the same way in my childhood, apparently on the assumption that you shouldn't ever use 'she': which is clearly just absurd. I always rather got the impression the 'cat's mother' thing was an expression my mother had picked up somewhere and had never really thought about. Or there may have been some servant-class superstition.
These days, I'd argue than some (or maybe many) Britons can feel a bit miffed if you refer to them, while they're there (and only when they're there), in the third person. What I can't put my finger on is what constitues a miffing use.
"Our next speaker is flanneruk. Flanneruk is the world's leading expert on longwinded webposts. He's posted everywhere, and in 2008 he won a Nobel prize for them. He was educated at Bash St Primary, and got his rantpostingology doctorate from Berkeley. He sits on the board of 37 companies" doesn't miff.
This miffs:
Me "can I have my boarding card please?"
Check in clerk. "Sorry: I can't work the machine. I'll just ask my colleague. (To colleague) He wants a boarding card."
Somewhere, there's a principle. Buggered if I can define what it is.
Well, I'm arguing there's no rule. The Louisa example you quote is incomprehensible - though I used to get attacked the same way in my childhood, apparently on the assumption that you shouldn't ever use 'she': which is clearly just absurd. I always rather got the impression the 'cat's mother' thing was an expression my mother had picked up somewhere and had never really thought about. Or there may have been some servant-class superstition.
These days, I'd argue than some (or maybe many) Britons can feel a bit miffed if you refer to them, while they're there (and only when they're there), in the third person. What I can't put my finger on is what constitues a miffing use.
"Our next speaker is flanneruk. Flanneruk is the world's leading expert on longwinded webposts. He's posted everywhere, and in 2008 he won a Nobel prize for them. He was educated at Bash St Primary, and got his rantpostingology doctorate from Berkeley. He sits on the board of 37 companies" doesn't miff.
This miffs:
Me "can I have my boarding card please?"
Check in clerk. "Sorry: I can't work the machine. I'll just ask my colleague. (To colleague) He wants a boarding card."
Somewhere, there's a principle. Buggered if I can define what it is.
Jul 16th, 2008, 06:15 AM
#114
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Much appreciated, flanneruk. And thanks again, oh2doula, for this edu-opp. Expecting someone to inform me that I should have said animal analogy instead of metaphor, another one of life's conundrums, J.
Jul 16th, 2008, 06:42 AM
#115
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Third person: classically offensive use (so much so it is used as the title of a radio programme), when of a person in a wheelchair - "Does he take sugar?"
As for being called "sir". I realised some time ago that you know you're getting old, not only when the policemen look absurdly young, not even when they start calling you "sir", but when you start taking it for granted that they should.
As for being called "sir". I realised some time ago that you know you're getting old, not only when the policemen look absurdly young, not even when they start calling you "sir", but when you start taking it for granted that they should.
Jul 16th, 2008, 06:57 AM
#116
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if that's why and when some of us (I really don't know if it's universal in Britain) feel annoyed at getting third-personned?
It's when it would normally be used only about the incapacitated. Inappropriate third-personning is when it seems to imply you can't speak for yourself.
A mark of growing up is the point when the doctor stops saying "does he cough at night" and starts saying "do you cough at night?": so children get VERY aware of being unnecessarily third-personned once they can communicate. Third-personning is now a notorious example of ban manners to the disabled and the elderly - at least among Radio 4 listeners.
Doesn't explain why we get miffed at third-personning and Americans don't.
It's when it would normally be used only about the incapacitated. Inappropriate third-personning is when it seems to imply you can't speak for yourself.
A mark of growing up is the point when the doctor stops saying "does he cough at night" and starts saying "do you cough at night?": so children get VERY aware of being unnecessarily third-personned once they can communicate. Third-personning is now a notorious example of ban manners to the disabled and the elderly - at least among Radio 4 listeners.
Doesn't explain why we get miffed at third-personning and Americans don't.
Jul 16th, 2008, 07:25 AM
#117
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stfc, if you were to go somewhere like Sheffield you would almost certainly be called "love" by men, for example bus drivers, without it meaning anything at all.
flanner, I'm only familiar with the "cat's mother" phrase when "she" is in the room, not as in your example - more like "She was the subject of Mrs Soandso's question" ? (BTW when did you change from a Scouser to Irish ?!)
flanner, I'm only familiar with the "cat's mother" phrase when "she" is in the room, not as in your example - more like "She was the subject of Mrs Soandso's question" ? (BTW when did you change from a Scouser to Irish ?!)
Jul 16th, 2008, 07:55 AM
#120
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flanneruk says "From a native English speaker, it sounds as if you're being deliberately offensive."
I think problems arise because we Americans (a term which would offend some Canadians I know, but it's an easy shortcut to my location) think we are native speakers of English and apparently that just ain't so if we're in Britain. ;-)
I've already learned to avoid some terms that are innocuous to me, and have been taken aback by others, seemingly fine there: e.g. "Buggered if I can define what it is."
I used to get miffed by southern waitresses calling me "honey," but now I've lived in the South many years, I don't care. Or maybe it's just I'm getting older and these kinds of things in general don't bother me any more.
It's one thing to be rude, i.e. to knowingly offend, and another to be culturally ignorant. So I'll try to be a good visitor, whilst knowing I'm likely to fall prey to one of the many pitfalls of cultural differences lying in wait. Won't worry about it enough to keep from having a wonderful time though.
I think problems arise because we Americans (a term which would offend some Canadians I know, but it's an easy shortcut to my location) think we are native speakers of English and apparently that just ain't so if we're in Britain. ;-)
I've already learned to avoid some terms that are innocuous to me, and have been taken aback by others, seemingly fine there: e.g. "Buggered if I can define what it is."
I used to get miffed by southern waitresses calling me "honey," but now I've lived in the South many years, I don't care. Or maybe it's just I'm getting older and these kinds of things in general don't bother me any more.
It's one thing to be rude, i.e. to knowingly offend, and another to be culturally ignorant. So I'll try to be a good visitor, whilst knowing I'm likely to fall prey to one of the many pitfalls of cultural differences lying in wait. Won't worry about it enough to keep from having a wonderful time though.
