corli33

"The thing is I just think that it's hard to define bad service. To me, service really needs to be *so bad* for me to even think about not leaving a tip, and even if that happens, I'm pretty sure that I'll want to talk to someone first."

"A lot of things that happen in a restaurant have nothing to do with the waitstaff. As I said, if the food is cold, it's more likely the fault of the kitchen than of the waitstaff, in my opinion. The waitstaff shouldn't be penalized for something like this."

This is so true. Also, in addition to cold food, some waitstaff may not deliever one's food quickly because the restaraunt is short handed, say several servers or chefs in the back call in sick because of a flu bug, then service might be slow, but it's not their fault. I look at something as bad service if I see servers standing around doing nothing and ignoring you, not checking on you at all or if the server has an "attitude".

thursdaysd

I live in the U.S., although I didn't grow up here, and while I hate the tipping system, and would love for wait staff to be paid properly, and food costs increased to compensate, I know that's not going to happen any time soon, and I tip according to local norms. (Although I wish someone could explain why a percentage should increase over time!)

However, I also, very rarely, reduce a tip for lousy service. I recently did that (the waiter ignored me to the point that I almost left before ordering, so nothing to do with the kitchen), leaving $1 instead of $2 (I was eating lunch, alone), and writing an explanation on the credit card slip, since I didn't feel like having a confrontation. When I got the credit card bill I saw that the restaurant had changed the tip to $2!! I was sufficiently annoyed to (successfully) contest the charge, but I'm sure the restaurant thought I wouldn't notice. They lost a customer.

kerouac

<i>"What are these "taxes," corli33? I just explained that the service charge is a convenient fiction to protect the customer."

VAT taxes.</i>

Do you live in a tax free country, corli33? I want to go there! (I am always amazed at how some people are upset to see the tax indicated on a restaurant bill in Europe and then they are the first ones to defend having sales tax added on everywhere in the U.S. when Europeans despise it.)

Eontheway

Although we don't routinely tip in Australia I will 'round up' for good service. It is difficult for me to understand the need to tip- surely wages paid by the owner, who is afterall making the profit, should be good enough to meet a basic living. Therefore no need to 'tip' HOWEVER I agree it is best to follow local custom. Last time hubby and I were in the US we were harrassed for not tipping but felt the service (or lack thereof) did not warrant it. This was embarrassing for all concerned - raised voices, off remarks- and we from then off felt "obliged' to tip regardless of service- in some respects this is MORE dissapointing. Last time in the UK we again resorted to the 'round up' if pleased method and this worked fine.

Padraig

Just curious: has anybody an experience of being confronted or harassed over not tipping (or insufficient tipping) in Europe?

sashh

<<I was followed out on the street by a waitress in Los Angeles for an "insufficient tip.">>

That may be because in America the waitress MAY (I know it's not everywhere) be expected to tip the chef, busboy, bar tender.

If your tip isn't enough to cover that she still has to tip them so in effect she is paying you to eat.

Nikki

Padraig, it is exactly because nobody will let you know when they think you haven't tipped enough in Europe that I feel confused about it. I am not saying that I want people to confront or harass me, but the standard just isn't clear to me, and this thread has not made it any clearer.

In the US, the standard is clear, and unless something is very out of the ordinary about service in a restaurant, I know exactly what I am supposed to do.

I can only hope that what I read from some of the posters here is true- that tipping in the UK and France is purely discretionary, and that no matter whether you leave something or not, you won't be committing a real gaffe.

Padraig

One respect in which this thread is confusing is that the OP asked for guidance on what to do in two different countries, and many of the responders did not deal with it as two separate questions. And Europe comprises far more than two countries, so there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question of how much to tip in Europe. For example, in restaurants in the UK and Ireland my reference level is about 10% of the bill, which I might adjust up or down according to how satisfied I am; in France, my thinking starts at 0%, and stays there unless there is a clear reason why I should give a euro or two.

It is very unusual for people in Europe to see themselves as entitled to a tip, to the point where they will make an issue of it if they are not tipped. There is, however, the idea of reasonable hope or expectation of a tip, and that is the understanding that I think Nikki and others would like to have -- not to avoid a confrontation, but to deal with people in a fair an appropriate way.

thursdaysd

Eontheway wrote: "Although we don't routinely tip in Australia I will 'round up' for good service. It is difficult for me to understand the need to tip- surely wages paid by the owner, who is afterall making the profit, should be good enough to meet a basic living."

Eontheway - I agree that wages "should" be good enough for a "basic living". Unfortunately, in the U.S. that is NOT the case. Wait staff are NOT paid even the minimum wage (let's not get into whether that is a living wage), and that is legal, because the government expects the difference to be made up in tips! The government is so sure that will happen, that wait staff are taxed on their presumed tax income.

So, if you don't tip in the U.S., your server loses out two ways. I think the system stinks, but we seem to be stuck with it. What really aggravates me is when Americans want to export their system to non-tipping countries.

thursdaysd

Oops, of course, that should have been "presumed tip income".

expatfranc

You are not obliged to pay a tip to a taxi driver in France. I do occassionally, but really only if the driver is kind and dosent try to take a long route.

Expatfrance
www.expatfrance.wordpress.com

Cholmondley_Warner

Re the UK. It's a myth that waiters are well enough paid not to need tips. They ain't. Most are on minimum wage which is £5.80an hour,which goes nowhere in London.

They do rely on rips (incidentally the waiter doesn't get the tip to himself. It goes in the "tronc" which is a pool of the tips which are shared out.)

MLF611

Interesting, CW. What about the waiters in Paris? Does the waiter at that little cafe really make enough to afford a decent apartment and lifestyle in the City of Light? If so, where can I apply? ;-)

If the waiters in the UK don't make enough, how do they get by? Somewhere I read that one in four young people (under 30) living in London need significant financial support from their parents--not to live a fun lifestyle out at the shops and pubs, but to afford basic necessities (yes, I realize that some might count shops and pubs as basic necessities--but not their parents).

MNsnowflake

My husband and I bought a small cup of Coke at a deli-type restaurant in London -- just purchased at the counter for takeaway -- and did not tip. The server followed us out of the shop and yelled at us about no tip. This was 30 years ago -- well before the ubiquitous "tip jars" that you see now here in the U.S. We just kept walking, but having traveled to England many times before that incident, I'd never seen anything like that before -- or, for that matter, since.

sashh

CW - the fact is they do get min wage, nor min wage less what their employer thinks they will get in tips.

If you are on minimum wage they you are probably getting top ups from tax credits and part of your rent and council tax paid, if not all of it.

Cholmondley_Warner

You only get tax credits if you'ce got rugrats.

Also the Housing and Council tax benefits system is pretty grim if you're single.

Which is one reason that no one in Britain makes a life long job of waiting. It's something you do when you're young, need a few bob extra or are between work.

Johnny Frog however does look on it as a lifetime job.

kerouac

That's because the tips are so good from foreign visitors.

Cholmondley_Warner

Nah, its just that they like loafing about and smoking.

sashh

<<My impression is that in London, if service is added, it's usually 12.5%. So that gives you some idea for how much tip to leave if it's not included.>>

And even then if the service is not up to much you are quite within your rights not to pay it.

Basically if you want to tip do, but no one expects it.

Restaurants are not allowed to use tips to make up wages. Personally I always tip in cash, even if I've paid by card - I know then that the money goes to the staff not the restaurant.

Nikki

DOn't be confused, the norm is NOT to tip, the reason people won't tell you that you have undertipped is because there is no such thing.