sbmarti2

okay, I'll make sure to keep that in mind. Does anyone know where I could do a winery tour for half a day? I'd be looking in the Lyon or Dijon area. I think it would be nice to do as a break between the cities, even if I do lose a day or so

sbmarti2

I also have another question, as we're spending 3 weeks there, whats the best way to handle laundry? Seeing how we won't be spending too many nights in the same place

suze

I use a combination... wash out light items in the sink using the little hotel shampoos (things that will dry overnight). Then hit a self-serve laundry matt or launderia where you drop it off and pick it up the next day, mid-trip. Wear outer garments more times between washings than you might at home.

nbujic

if you are in one place ( Paris or Rome) for 4-5 nights, you may think about renting an apt - they have washing machines.

lucy_d

Many hotels will do laundry for you. You put the items to be washed in the plastic bag provided and recieve them back the next day.

Plan to wear every top and every bottom twice before washing.

I'd also like to encourage you to reconsider Florence. It is a wonderful city, especially if you are interested in art.

I would skip Milan.

Keep in mind, too, that London is quite an expensive city. I would shave a day off my stay there. It will save you a lot of money.

Opinions expressed on cities are entirely my own. Others may disagree. It's just my opinion based on my experiences.

You will have a wonderful trip whatever you end up doing. Keep posting here and asking questions. People here are generous in their help.

mjs

I am getting a little confused here but let me make a few comments. First, I was on Kayak checking some other fares and just for the fun of it I punched in YHZ/LON with return FCO/YHZ leaving April 14 and return May 5 and fares were in the mid $900 area. You can open jaw this route at a very reasonable fare, not $3000. Secondly, Lyon and Dijon are not in the country but are small cities with populations of perhaps 400000 for Lyon and perhaps 175000 for Dijon. If you want to see the Ftench countryside you will need to rent a car and loose one of your city desinations like Florence. I am not a shopper and not the biggest fan of Milan other than the LS, La Scala and the Duomo so I guess I cannot see the attraction of Milan in this trip. I do not know what your budget for shopping is but you might find that costs are higher than you might imagine. Laundry is easy, find a laundromat near your lodging and do it one night when you need to. Many places will do it for you for pick up later. I also think Jeanne B's itinerary is pretty good.

suze

Certainly more high-end hotels may offer laundry services but it is quite expensive as they charge per piece normally (compared to taking it all somewhere yourself).

lucy_d

You're right, suze. Just throwing that out as a Plan B in case there isn't a laundry mat nearby or if pressed for time. I guess it did sound like I was promoting that option, though. I need to step away from the keyboard when wine glass is in hand.

JeanneB

I haven't been to Milan, so this may be a tres stupid question. Is Milan shopping <i>that</i> much better than Rome?! Don't know what kind of shopping you have planned, but we adored the shops in Florence, too. Not to mention Paris...and London.

suze

ah Lucy-D, that's OK. I'm tired myself today and have been on the forum far too long.

Myself I would use a hotel service, if I felt the need, knowing the expense. But mostly I get by with just rinse in the sink for inner clothing, and continue to wear the outer. Unless you're camping or it's a heatwave I'm not a fuss-nick about having real clean clothes for 3 weeks in Europe. way down my priority list -lol!

nytraveler

Do NOT organize the travel first.

What you do first is make a list of the cities, what you really have to see in each and how long it will take. Then you can decide if 4 days is enough for Rome or YOU need 6.

Once you have the days figured out - and have adjusted them, made what compromses you need to fit into your number of days. THEN you start figuring out the travel. Be sure to do open jaws airfare into the first city and out of the last city. Whether you do air, train or car between cities depends on how you decide to spend your time.

Finally, hotels come last. Then look at restaurants and smaller details.

suze

Obviously everyone has their own methods and order they think is best. I DO the plane ticket first, then the hotels. and I've managed to stumble thru a few trips to Europe on my own just fine so far!

lucy_d

Absolutely book flights first, then hotels. You are then locked in and forced to do your research and map out your itinerary.

ledhead

Hi there! My daughters and I took our first trip to Europe almost 2 years ago. We also wanted to try to fit in multiple countries. We did: London 3 days, then Paris 4 days, Black Forest 3 days,Florence 4 days. It was a lot of train travel, but it was so much fun! The only downside is not being able to see everything. But at least we experienced the majors! If I had it to do over, I would give London another day (lots to see), the Black Forest was great but not much to do (2 days tops) (by the way I hear Munich is great - biergartens, cool museums etc.. And Florence was nice but I think 3 days would have been enough. We stayed at the Hotel Berchielli which was reasonable for Florence, and it was right overlooking the Arno river and across the street from the Ponte Vecchio (great jewelry stores, Uffizi museum. We found it better to pay a bit more to stay in the center of Florence, as the cab fares are VERY expensive. At our hotel, we could just walk to all the sites. Also it was air conditioned and they had a great hot American breakfast buffet included in the price each morning. I agree that skipping Zurich is a good idea. Switzerland is beautiful, as we saw on the long train trip, but we had to change trains in Zurich and wait a bit and what we saw of Zurich seemed kind of drab. You are better off going to Interlaken if you want to see Switzerland and its beautiful Alps (Jungfrau). You can even take a tour to the top of Jungfrau where there is a lookout over the tallest glacier in Europe and your train actually passes through the mountain. There is also an ice palace of gorgeous ice sculptures inside the mountain as well as a restaurant. As far as Venice, never been there but I hear its really different and fun to see. I personally have no interest in Rome. I have heard its dirty and hot and, after seeing one crumbled building, it gets kind of old. Vatican is nice though. Well, good luck, and write back to let us know how it was!

sbmarti2

haha, I didn't expect so many responses! The attraction of Rome for me is my ancient history background, and it'll be nice to see what I've been studying. Switzerland is now out of the question, as it was more of an idea than anything else. Florence still has a chance, but I need to research the cities more, and it may replace Milan if the shopping is just as good elsewhere. Lyon and Dijon are also out of the question, as it is much cheaper to fly from Milan (or Florence) to Paris. However, I've gone over this itinerary and I have time to do more it seems. If we only do 4 days in Paris and London respectively, then I think I can fit in another city. I know it may seem jammed, but we are very active and will be able to see a lot in one day. I was thinking Brussells or Vienna; Brussells as its close to Paris, or Vienna, where we would just fly there after Milan, then fly to Paris. This would be the itinerary:

Rome: 5 days
Venice: 3 days
Milan or Florence: 2 days
Vienna or Brussels: 2 days
Paris: 4-5 days
London: 4-5 days

Travel would be the morning of the first day. So for Venice, we would stay in Rome, then the morning of the first day in Venice we would take the train there. I know it may seem tiring, but we can sleep a bit on the train and I am used to going from 9am-9pm between school and work, so I can accomplish a lot per day

sbmarti2

Alright, I've researched some more, and decided on a few things. I think I will replace Milan with Florence, as shopping can be done in Rome and Paris just as easily. Also, I've decided against Vienna as well, as I don't want to fly twice in the middle of the trip. I will roughly adopt the Itinerary set out by Jeanne, but I may add another day in Paris and go see Versailles, as there is a lot of history there.

fun4all4

Hi,

There are lots of great suggestions here. JeanneB's itinerary looks great to me. I usually try to fit in some time in the countryside like BobtheNav suggested, but it may not work to your best advantage on this trip. If you want to spend some time in Tuscany or French countryside, I think I would drop London and fly out of Paris in order to use those days for a smaller area. However, I really like the Rome,Florence, Venice, Paris and London and you have a good amount of time in each.

I am glad it seems you have replaced Milan with Florence. I actually liked Milan, but I liked Florence more. It is very walkable. Also, there was tons of shopping in Florence - lots of leather goods, scarves, and lots of markets in addition to shops. I don't know your budget, but Florence was much more &quot;accessible&quot; to me shopping-wise in terms of price. Milan is a true center for high fashion/designer stuff, but that is not my interest or budget. I bought more in Florence than Milan.

Once you have a good structure, which it sounds like you are very close, then you can book air. Start thinking about what you want to see in each area to make sure the time in each city seems right to you. Then you can book hotels and trains. Next you can start sketching out a rough daily itinerary. Be sure to build in some free time for the unexpected and for relaxing with wine,coffee, and/or gelato.

Happy Travels!

Pausanias

If your main interest is ancient Roman history, why not devise a trip around it, rather than cramming a bit in at the end of a standard welcome to Europe itinerary?

For instance, you could fly in Glasgow, see the Antonine Wall, head down and visit Hadrian's Wall, Housesteads, etc. You could visit York, or Cirencester, or the Chedworth Roman villa, or any of the Roman sites in southern Britannia. Aquae Sulis? In Londinium, visit the statue to the rabble-rousing Boudicea and perhaps temple of Mithras.

Cross to Gaul. Little of Lutece remains. but the Cluny museum is built upon the ancient baths. There are some interesting sites in front of Notre Dame. But you want to head south to The Province, where you can visit Roman aqueducts, temples and theaters.

You gaze forlornly at Hispania -- simply too much, even with three weeks. Not much left of Helvetia. It's Italy for you.

Your target is Rome, but linger a bit in the north. Lake Trasimene where Hannibal so cruelly slaughtered the legions, perhaps a stop in an Etruscan center or two -- we must acknowledge the debt! Then Rome, imperial Rome (imagine Olivier drawling that out) -- but maybe detour to Naples/Pompeii/Herculaneum/Baia/Avernus/ and the cave of the Sybill at Cumae -- and end at the best, Rome.

Well, there you are, three weeks and you've barely started. Mauretania, Egypt, Illyria, Dacia and Thrace, Asia, Egypt and Mesopotamia! Many trips ahead, tracing the empire.

sbmarti2

haha, its cruel to tempt me with such ideas, but the main focus of this trip is Italy and France really. I have an interest in ancient history which explains the extra day or two in Rome, but other than that there is no time for it. As I said there are two people going, and the other is more interested in art and architecture, so we will mostly stay to the cities.

MaureenB

I think you've shaped your itinerary very nicely. I don't agree with another poster how advised you to plan your US-Europe air travel last, unless price is of no concern. Airfares are so unpredictable, I've found it's best to research the most cost-effective routes first. I think with London and Rome, you'll fine lots of options and fares. Good luck and have fun planning.
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