Kandace_York

Hi, we are hoping to take a trip later this year and I'm looking for your input. There will be four of us (two adults, two teens) and we've been to Europe before. Purpose of the trip is to check out a couple colleges, with the bonus of seeing one of our former exchange students. This will be a budget trip, not a lot of touristy stuff, and I know it covers a lot of territory in a short time but this might be the last chance we have to travel as a family so I'm trying to make the most of it.

On some days I figure we'll give the teens the option of exploring on their own for a few hours -- our experience has been that they have roughly 17 times our energy, and sticking together 24/7 results in frustrated kids and exhausted parents. Everyone has basic conversational German skills (and English of course ;-) ) so I think we'll all be able to hold our own as long as we stick with the buddy system.

Day 0
- red-eye flight to Manchester, England

Day 1
- arrive a.m. in Manchester, train from airport into the city
- check in to youth hostel
(if we feel up to it we might explore the city a little)

Day 2
- settle in, explore the city

Day 3
- university visit #1

Day 4
- university visit #2

Day 5
- a.m. Megabus trip to London (yes, this is longer than the train but it saves us $150+ and I figure we can nap along the way)
- check in to hostel, maybe check out a park and/or market

Day 6
- explore London

Day 7
- a.m., fly LHR to FRA (former exchange student lives near there)
- settle in to hotel near Bahnhof, maybe explore the Altstadt

Day 8
- visit with former exchange student

Day 9
- take ICE train to Munich (this is a splurge because it saves so much time over regional trains)
- settle in to hostel near Bahnhof, maybe explore Munich

Day 10
- explore Munich

Day 11
- day trip to Neuschwanstein/Tegelbergbahn (teens' request; parents will probably relax and explore Schwangau while the kids tour the castle and ride the Tegelbergbahn)

Day 12
- depart mid-day, back home by evening

I know it's tight, but do you think there's enough flexibility that this could work? Many thanks for your feedback!

nytraveler

Well, it's rushed but you know that and have a reason for scheduling it this way. My only question is what time of year the trip will be. As long as it isn't winter - when bad weather could make a nonsense of any road transit - you should be OK.

Kandace_York

Thanks. I'm hoping that it will be late spring -- waiting to make sure I can get the time off before I book anything.

I'm toying with *maybe* making London a day trip from Manchester. It would be more money because we'd need to take the train instead of the bus, but the net amount of time in the city might not be much less, and we could stay at our Manchester hostel for about half the cost of a London hostel. There's more research to do...

traveller1959

The German part of your itinerary looks certainly doable.

And of course, you take the ICE train which is not necessarily a splurge. Go exactly 3 months before your travelling date on www.bahn.de and buy super saver tickets. There is a limited contingent of tickets for €19, but more contingents for a little more costly tickets. But they sell out quickly.

Make yourself familiar with the website and play around with some dummy bookings. And then, if you want to travel, say, on 7 May buy your online tickets on 7 February.

sofarsogood

days 5, 6 and 7 don't seem very efficient to me

day 5 you're checking out and on the bus

day 6 OK one full day in London

day 7 you're checking out and on a plane to Germany

would it not be better to fly from Manchester and skip London, and make better use of these days elsewhere in England or Germany?

Fussgaenger

About Days 9, 10, 11...

Your trip is too "tight" because you are attempting Bavaria with too little time. Why bother? You've got 3+ train hours wrapped up in getting to Munich and 5+ train and bus hours getting to N'stein and back to Munich. You don't really have much time for Munich considering its many options. N'stein is a late 19th-century fake castle that you'll be sharing with the tourist horde.

I never quite grasp why Bavaria, while it's a nice place to visit, often becomes the ONLY place for visitors to Frankfurt, when there's so much in the vicinity of FRANKFURT itself.

An hour to the west and you're in the Middle Rhine Valley:

Real castles:
http://www.uli-franke.de/wp-content/...Rheinstein.jpg
https://dreabobea.files.wordpress.co...urg-castle.jpg

River cruises:
http://www.bingen-ruedesheimer.de/wp...t-Objekt-1.jpg

Old-world villages:
Bacharach - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...arach_BW_9.JPG
Braubach - http://www.romantischer-rhein.de/upl...ltstadt_02.jpg
Oberwesel - http://www.oberwesel.de/uploads/pics...rrundweg_2.jpg

Chairlifts and summer bob runs:

Loreley bobsled:
http://barrierefrei.gastlandschaften...8146332b5f.jpg

Boppard chairlift: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractio...alatinate.html

A CASTLE-hostel with a view: http://georg-dahlhoff.de/wp/wp-conte...1210207960.jpg

Falconry show at Reichsburg castle (Cochem, Mosel River):
http://www.falknerei-reichsburg-coch...IM3101_JPG.jpg

Fussgaenger

BTW the Middle Rhine is a UNESCO World Heritage site - here's good primer on the area:
http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.d...php?id=274&L=3

bilboburgler

Kandace, forgive me but did you "do" Leeds last year?

If not then it is an easy trip Manchester to Leeds or York. If not you might prefer Liverpool as a day trip. It just seems like a tough haul down to London, when you are going onto Germany.

I'm going to assume you can get MAN into a sensible German airport, but if not Liverpool also has cheap flights.

BTW Manchester has at least a couple of great art museums you may want to fit in (and they are free).

hetismij2

Is there a reason for the London trip? If ,not stay in Manchester and explore the city more, especially if the universities are based in the city, or maybe do a day trip to Liverpool, then fly from Manchester to Frankfurt, and do as Fuussgaengger suggests, explore that area rather than dragging off for a hasty visit to Bavaria, with the extra expense involved.

Kandace_York

Thanks, this is just the brain power I was looking for.

@Bilboburger, yes, for last year's college-hunting trip we stayed in Leeds and had a long weekend in London. Good memory! This is Round #2, final decisions (we hope).

@Traveller1959, yes, I've been playing around at bahn.de already, which is where I found the Sparpreis for the ICE train.

@SoFarSoGood and @Hetismij2, the rest of the family feels really strongly about spending some time in London. I love London, too, but if it were up to me, I'd skip it and concentrate on Manchester. The fares from Manchester to Munich and Frankfurt are only slightly more than flying out of London.

@Fussgaenger, I agree with everything you said, and we love including UNESCO World Heritage sites whenever we can. My original plan was to fly into Frankfurt and check out Bacharach, Mainz, etc., but again, the other three votes were 100% for Neuschwanstein. I saw Neuschwanstein in high school and don't have a big need to see it again when there's so much more to offer.

Let me see what I can do to rework our itinerary based on your suggestions. Thanks again -- I really appreciate it!

Fussgaenger

"...the other three votes were 100% for Neuschwanstein."

Yes but your vote is informed by experience rather than glossy brochure photos... and so are the votes you solicited here, which appear to agree that southern Bavaria makes your trip rushed. (And my guess is that 2 of the 3 voters you mention aren't actually paying the extra costs you'll see by including southern Bavaria.)

Kandace_York

OK, what are your thoughts on this itinerary? I added a trip to Bacharach and skipped over Munich except on the day we would fly home. It's still a lot of travel but it seems more streamlined, with more of an emphasis on the Middle Rhine area.

Day 0-4 same

Day 5
- day: Manchester
- late evening: train to London, check into hostel

Day 6
- day: London
- late evening: fly to Frankfurt, check into hotel by Hauptbahnhof

Day 7
- a.m. train from Frankfurt to Bacharach
- explore the town
- spend night at Burg Stahleck castle hostel

Day 8
- a.m. train from Bacharach to Wiesbaden, visit with friends
- night: Wiesbaden hotel

Day 9
- day: Wiesbaden with friends
- night: Weisbaden hotel

Day 10
- day: Frankfurt
- afternoon/evening: ICE train direct to Fussen, check into hostel/hotel there

Day 11
- Neuschwanstein/Tegelbergbahn
- evening: train to Munich, stay near Hauptbahnhof

Day 12
- depart Munich mid-day, back home by evening

Fussgaenger

"OK, what are your thoughts on this itinerary? I added a trip to Bacharach and skipped over Munich except on the day we would fly home. It's still a lot of travel but it seems more streamlined, with more of an emphasis on the Middle Rhine area."

Looks like less than a day for London? Hardly seems worth going there just to fly to FRA 24 hours later. I'd try to spend most of Day 7 there, at least, and fly out in the evening for Frankfurt. Or do as sofarsogood suggests and skip London altogether.

I suggested the Rhine starting as a way to transfer your time and travel interests from Bavaria to the Frankfurt area, thus allowing more "flex time" with your exchange student and avoiding the extra-long train trips to Füssen and then to Munich.

But if you do those journeys anyway, that's 6+ hours for Wiesbaden - Füssen and 2+ hours for Füssen - Munich (and some additional cost of course.) You already have a long coach trip to make in the UK. During these long rides you are not really seeing and doing things in Europe together. With this new plan you're still going all the way to southern Bavaria but now to see/do even less there than before. And you have two different hotels there, thus two different "find hotel, check-in, unpack, pack up, check out, get to station" routines. It's just a lot of motion for a 30-minute tour and a gondola ride. Not worth it IMO.

If you arrive at FRA on the evening of Day 7 and sleep there, then you have 4 days/nights to visit with friends and see Frankfurt / Mainz / Wiesbaden / the Middle Rhine Valley. Fly home out of FRA. That's what I'd recommend if you keep London.

Alternatively: skip London, fly MAN to FRA on Day 5, sleep there; then spend Day 6 w/ exchange student, then head to Munich that evening (lv. Frankfurt 17:54, ar. Munich 21:05) and then you have Days 7-11 for southern Bavaria. (Or perhaps stay in Frankfurt on Night 6 if you want the evening with your exchange student as well, then head to Munich on the morning of Day 7, leaving 4.5 days for southern Bavaria.)

Kandace_York

Thanks, Fussgaenger (and everyone else). I'll start family negotiations.

Your input is appreciated -- this is exactly the guidance I was looking for.

PalenQ

day 7 I would not sit in Bacharach but take the K-D boats thru the best part of the Rhine - the Rhine Gorge between Rudesheim/Bingen and Koblenz (or Boppard) - www.k-d.com for schedules and fares - can hop on and off boats to explore things like Marksburg Castle, the only castle on this part of the Rhine not destroyed in wars - all others were ruined and or rebuilt.

for lots on the boats and trains check www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

Kandace_York

Third draft is a charm? "Getting over" not seeing Neuschwanstein or going to Fruehlingsfest took some convincing, but I think it was more because of the recognition factor of the King Ludwig castle and the Oktoberfest connection rather than anything else. Both the girls have learned about the Lorelei legend in German class, and I'm *hoping* we can stay at Burg Stahleck. UNESCO World Heritage site status does not really impress teens, but I think it will mean a lot more to them when they see it in person.

Anyhow, here's the latest draft:

Day 1 arrive in Manchester

Day 2 Manchester

Day 3 Manchester

Day 4 leave Manchester mid-day, train to London 2.5 hours

Day 5 London

Day 6 London

Day 7 fly to Frankfurt, meet up with friends

Day 8 Frankfurt/Bacharach, more time with friends

Day 9 Rhine exploration (friends will be back to work) -- river cruise, Loreley Rodelbahn, hiking at will ;-)

Day 10 day trip to Heidelberg or Strasbourg

Day 11 depart mid-day

Thoughts? One of the things I'm puzzling over a bit is how to get to the Loreley Rodelbahn. I see that it's in Bornich, but I can't find much info at all on its exact location, train station, etc. We won't have a car so we'll be totally dependent on public transit.

Thanks for sharing your advice!

Fussgaenger

Shuttle bus 595 gets you from the KD boat dock in St. Goarshausen to the Loreley visitor center (Besucherzentrum) which is the same stop as for the Loreley-bob.

"Weiterhin fährt von Ostern bis Ende Oktober der Loreley-Shuttlebus (NVG-Linie 595) von St. Goarshausen nach Loreley-Besucherzentrum (und wieder zurück)."

Shuttle 595 schedule: http://www.nvg-bogel.de/uploads/nsg/...7/fahrplan.pdf

Your plan looks far more doable now. I would include a castle visit at the end of your cruise - either Rheinfels or Marksburg.

Heidelberg is OK. Overall Mainz, which you mentioned before, is a little more interesting IMO - more to do there (and of course much closer to Bacharach - only a few € for the train trip.) If you do Mainz, you might as well stay there on Night 10 - it's only 25 minutes from FRA.

Check the travel time and expense for the trip to Heidelberg - a round trip there from Bacharach will probably cost you about 4 train hours. Returning all the way back to Bacharach after that trip seems like unnecessary train travel on that day and the next if you're headed to FRA. Might be better just to stay in Heidelberg and travel to FRA the next morning.

Bacharach castle-hostel: It's so far up on the cliffside - like 500 stair steps - that leaving and returning on foot might be drudgery. For one night it's probably OK (if you can manage your bags) but you might want a taxi to get up. I would want to stay there for only one night, and I think you have 3 nights scheduled. Ugh.

There are lots of other places in Bacharach but you also might consider St. Goar - it's 10 minute north of Bacharach on the most scenic spot on the river, it's close to the Loreley-Bob, Rheinfels is right there, it's a good place to end the cruise and there's a ferry there to cross the river all day long - lots of good advantages in your case.

http://www.schiffbilder.de/1024/pers...chen-18381.jpg

St. Goar rooms, apartments etc: http://www.st-goar.de/612-1-host-directory.html

You might also look into the Ring-Ticket experience in Rüdesheim - there are two lifts, some walking, and a cruise all in one package:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserR...ein_Hesse.html

http://www.bingen-ruedesheimer.de/li...icket/?lang=en

Kandace_York

Again, thanks! I'll check into all that. I appreciate the info on the shuttle bus, that one's been puzzling me the last couple days. And although the husband doesn't know it yet, he and his knees will probably appreciate your tip on one night in Burg Stahleck instead of three.

Fussgaenger

I don't know your dates, but there's a unique local festival on April 30 in Oberwesel. "Wine Witch Night" involves the public burning of a (straw) wine witch on Oberwesel's Market Square to usher out the old wine season and the selection of a new wine queen to bring in the new one... also fireworks, ceremony, music, lots of wine too.

http://www.oberwesel.de/en/highlights/weinhexennacht/
http://weinhexenmahl.de/pictures/200...cht-450_01.jpg
http://www.oberwesel.de/uploads/pics...ht14-hq-fw.JPG
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/...21efe01fdd.jpg

janisj

I agree your new plan is much more doable . . .