The Wines of England
Jul 12th, 2008, 09:36 AM
#21
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Gag? I remember about 25 years ago when Californian wines were described as 'foxy'. If you've ever been near a fox's lair you will understand. They certainly aren't now.
And as stated earlier, Australian, NZ, S African, and S American wines stand up with any in the world. I understand the French wine industry has been working hard (using Australian experts in some places) to regain their status as the world's best.
Just because small amounts are produced by enthusiasts is no reason to mock - try some. Austria and Switzerland produce excellent wines as well but not in large quantities so it is rare to see them outside their homeland. Also Canada.
The thought of peanut butter and jelly combined makes me gag but I understand the combination has been used to raise generations of American children so I'm clearly missing something. Maybe I'll be brave enough to try it someday.
And as stated earlier, Australian, NZ, S African, and S American wines stand up with any in the world. I understand the French wine industry has been working hard (using Australian experts in some places) to regain their status as the world's best.
Just because small amounts are produced by enthusiasts is no reason to mock - try some. Austria and Switzerland produce excellent wines as well but not in large quantities so it is rare to see them outside their homeland. Also Canada.
The thought of peanut butter and jelly combined makes me gag but I understand the combination has been used to raise generations of American children so I'm clearly missing something. Maybe I'll be brave enough to try it someday.
Jul 12th, 2008, 09:40 AM
#22
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Well, I'm not going to apologize for my involuntary reactions.
People are so defensive over nothing!
Why does everybody have to be same or like you?
If I were marketing English wine, I would want to know how the idea struck lots of wine drinkers.
I'm sure getting people to drink California wine required some serious marketing thought after all those years of jugs of Gallo being the instant image.
People are so defensive over nothing!
Why does everybody have to be same or like you?
If I were marketing English wine, I would want to know how the idea struck lots of wine drinkers.
I'm sure getting people to drink California wine required some serious marketing thought after all those years of jugs of Gallo being the instant image.
Jul 12th, 2008, 10:14 AM
#24
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No-one's marketing the concept of English wine, and no-one's ever likely to.
They're all very small vineyards, all miles away from each other. What they each produce is different. Each vineyard does limited promotion of its own small production, mostly based on local appeal and the individual wine's characteristics.
There's really little prospect of cooperatives, appellations, mass brands or any of the other techniques essential for wider promotion. The history of Californian or NZ wines is of limited value: English wines have to live with what are arguably the world's finest vineyards being only a few hours' drive away, they'll never be able to match Continental economics, and the UK government can't offer them any support.
BUT a growing number of British hotels and restaurants can charge a premium for locally-sourced food and beer, and serving local food carries a growing cachet at many people's tables. The hope for English vineyards is that they'll develop a small, niche, premium share of wine consumption in the five miles immediately adjoining them.
The only way to do that is by individual wines establishing a local reputation. No-one's ever going to expect the people of Epernay (or even Birmingham)to pick up a bottle of Debbies Greenfields Sparkling Cuvee at their hypermarket - even though it's a lot better than some of the crap that qualifies on geography alone for a Champagne AC. But sooner or later, it'll become chic for weddings in the Dorking area to be held at the Debbies vineyard, or to serve Debbies rather than the ubiquitous Moet.
They're all very small vineyards, all miles away from each other. What they each produce is different. Each vineyard does limited promotion of its own small production, mostly based on local appeal and the individual wine's characteristics.
There's really little prospect of cooperatives, appellations, mass brands or any of the other techniques essential for wider promotion. The history of Californian or NZ wines is of limited value: English wines have to live with what are arguably the world's finest vineyards being only a few hours' drive away, they'll never be able to match Continental economics, and the UK government can't offer them any support.
BUT a growing number of British hotels and restaurants can charge a premium for locally-sourced food and beer, and serving local food carries a growing cachet at many people's tables. The hope for English vineyards is that they'll develop a small, niche, premium share of wine consumption in the five miles immediately adjoining them.
The only way to do that is by individual wines establishing a local reputation. No-one's ever going to expect the people of Epernay (or even Birmingham)to pick up a bottle of Debbies Greenfields Sparkling Cuvee at their hypermarket - even though it's a lot better than some of the crap that qualifies on geography alone for a Champagne AC. But sooner or later, it'll become chic for weddings in the Dorking area to be held at the Debbies vineyard, or to serve Debbies rather than the ubiquitous Moet.
Jul 12th, 2008, 10:46 AM
#25
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Yes, I thought gagging was a rather strong reaction too.
But I often have strong feelings!
That bother you?
Last time I was in London, I was at a Thai restaurant and tried Thai wine.
If I'm ever in Dorking, I'll be sure to try some English wine.
But I often have strong feelings!
That bother you?
Last time I was in London, I was at a Thai restaurant and tried Thai wine.
If I'm ever in Dorking, I'll be sure to try some English wine.
Jul 12th, 2008, 12:50 PM
#26
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They used to sell English wine in my local branch of Monoprix in Lyon.
The area was hardly an expat enclave so I'm assuming some French people were buying it (though admittedly it might have been bought by people thinking it was an amusing gimmick).
Anyway, that aside, I have been very impressed with most of the English whites, sparkling wines and rosés that I have tasted.
The area was hardly an expat enclave so I'm assuming some French people were buying it (though admittedly it might have been bought by people thinking it was an amusing gimmick).
Anyway, that aside, I have been very impressed with most of the English whites, sparkling wines and rosés that I have tasted.
Jul 12th, 2008, 01:52 PM
#27
Traveller
Thanks for the link, the point I was making is that Uk wine prices make £10 very unlikely. That one can buy Chablis in DE or Chablis it self for less is very true.
Good thread. We have a winery in Leeds. Mainly Russian grapes and an oddity but never drink it
Thanks for the link, the point I was making is that Uk wine prices make £10 very unlikely. That one can buy Chablis in DE or Chablis it self for less is very true.
Good thread. We have a winery in Leeds. Mainly Russian grapes and an oddity but never drink it
Jul 12th, 2008, 04:52 PM
#28
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It was not that long ago that here in Australia we gagged on most Italian wine imports. To say that they did not travel well was an understatement.
Now just about everything we try down here from the now revitalised Italian wine industry is great and now we see many Scicilian and Sardinian offerings.
We are now very much into micro-regional wines and new varietals like arneis. The great preference for chardonnays here has been heavily eroded now by hundreds of Australian producers of pinot gris/griggios.
I agree with flanneruk's comments regarding cachet and growth from a regional start.
In planning our trip next year the England segment includes London,Cornwall and Melton Mowbray District. My objective was to see if "wine tourism" was evolving there.
Just about every visit that we take into the countryside/bush here involves dropping in on local vineyards that are often linked to food supply/restaurant businesses.
So far I have some options for Cornwall and South of London. It seems that finding a vineyard near Melton Mowbray may be a little more challenging. Ah, but maybe there are micro-breweries nearby producing Belgian styles. I wish
Now just about everything we try down here from the now revitalised Italian wine industry is great and now we see many Scicilian and Sardinian offerings.
We are now very much into micro-regional wines and new varietals like arneis. The great preference for chardonnays here has been heavily eroded now by hundreds of Australian producers of pinot gris/griggios.
I agree with flanneruk's comments regarding cachet and growth from a regional start.
In planning our trip next year the England segment includes London,Cornwall and Melton Mowbray District. My objective was to see if "wine tourism" was evolving there.
Just about every visit that we take into the countryside/bush here involves dropping in on local vineyards that are often linked to food supply/restaurant businesses.
So far I have some options for Cornwall and South of London. It seems that finding a vineyard near Melton Mowbray may be a little more challenging. Ah, but maybe there are micro-breweries nearby producing Belgian styles. I wish
Jul 13th, 2008, 01:17 AM
#29
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flanner's right. english wine is just a curiousity. if serving english wine at a dinner party, one would have to clearly indicate that 'all wine served tonight is english'. without this excuse, you will be seen as serving bad wine.
after your declaration that you are serving english wine, suddenly interest in the wine grows and (if chosen carefully) you will get comments that english wine can be 'ok'. everyone feels good about drinking something 'local' and supporting the local economy. before stating that the wine is english, guests reactions will likely range from apathy to distaste (even with carefully selected english wines).
in summary, english wine cannot stand on its own merit....especially if value for money is a consideration (which is nearly always the case when judging wine). most do not look to kindly on a £14 bottle of wine that tastes like a £4 bottle.
after your declaration that you are serving english wine, suddenly interest in the wine grows and (if chosen carefully) you will get comments that english wine can be 'ok'. everyone feels good about drinking something 'local' and supporting the local economy. before stating that the wine is english, guests reactions will likely range from apathy to distaste (even with carefully selected english wines).
in summary, english wine cannot stand on its own merit....especially if value for money is a consideration (which is nearly always the case when judging wine). most do not look to kindly on a £14 bottle of wine that tastes like a £4 bottle.
Jul 13th, 2008, 02:32 AM
#30
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The British people on this thread want to have a VERY hard look at themselves. I'd hesitate to use the term "ponces" but nevertheless...
Wine growing nations are invariably crap at winning wars (or turn up after the real fighting's been done), and all tend to live with their mums until their 40 and have dodgy barnets.
England is a beer making country. The best in the world (that fizzy yellow stuff doesn't count). So if you're looking for booze related tourism in London you should go to Fullers.
Wine? What next, the foie gras factories of Blackburn?
Wine growing nations are invariably crap at winning wars (or turn up after the real fighting's been done), and all tend to live with their mums until their 40 and have dodgy barnets.
England is a beer making country. The best in the world (that fizzy yellow stuff doesn't count). So if you're looking for booze related tourism in London you should go to Fullers.
Wine? What next, the foie gras factories of Blackburn?
Jul 13th, 2008, 02:53 AM
#31
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From all I have learned from research since the start of this thread, I believe I can justify the statement that England produces a small number of sparkling wines that are as good as some of the best the Loire Valley produces.
That comparison benchmark would be a good way to start a dinner or cocktail party I would have thought.
I also know that I have tried a small number of very good whites produced in England with thanks to BA up front and in their Terraces Lounges.
However I remain disappointed with most mainstream beers produced in Australia and in the UK. I am always interested to be educated on non-mainstream brewing products from the UK. Thank you for your efforts here.
That comparison benchmark would be a good way to start a dinner or cocktail party I would have thought.
I also know that I have tried a small number of very good whites produced in England with thanks to BA up front and in their Terraces Lounges.
However I remain disappointed with most mainstream beers produced in Australia and in the UK. I am always interested to be educated on non-mainstream brewing products from the UK. Thank you for your efforts here.
Jul 13th, 2008, 03:01 AM
#32
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>They're all very small vineyards, all miles away from each other. What they each produce is different. Each vineyard does limited promotion of its own small production, mostly based on local appeal and the individual wine's characteristics.
Which is exactly what wine experts and enthusiasts are looking for.
Which is exactly what wine experts and enthusiasts are looking for.
Jul 13th, 2008, 04:22 AM
#34
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I just listened to that Monty Python bit about Australian wines - one of the funniest sketches ever:
"A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palate but also to the cognoscenti of Great Britain.
Black Stump Bordeaux is rightly praised as a peppermint flavored Burgundy, whilst a good Sydney Syrup can rank with any of the world's best sugary wines. Château Blue, too, has won many prizes; not least for its taste, and its lingering afterburn. Old Smokey 1968 has been compared favorably to a Welsh claret, whilst the Australian Wino Society thoroughly recommends a 1970 Coq du Rod Laver, which, believe me, has a kick on it like a mule. Eight bottles of this and you're really finished. At the opening of the Sydney Bridge Club, they were fishing them out of the main sewers every half an hour.
Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is Perth Pink. This is a bottle with a message in and the message is "beware". This is not a wine for drinking; this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.
Another good fighting wine is Melbourne Old & Yellow, which is particularly heavy and should be used only for hand-to-hand combat.
Quite the reverse is true of Château Chunder, which is an appellation contrôlée, specially grown for those keen on regurgitation; a fine wine which really opens up the sluices at both ends. Real emetic fans will also go for a Hobart Muddy and a prize winning Cuivre Reserve Château Bottled Nuit San Wogga Wogga, which has a bouquet like an aborigine's armpit."
"A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palate but also to the cognoscenti of Great Britain.
Black Stump Bordeaux is rightly praised as a peppermint flavored Burgundy, whilst a good Sydney Syrup can rank with any of the world's best sugary wines. Château Blue, too, has won many prizes; not least for its taste, and its lingering afterburn. Old Smokey 1968 has been compared favorably to a Welsh claret, whilst the Australian Wino Society thoroughly recommends a 1970 Coq du Rod Laver, which, believe me, has a kick on it like a mule. Eight bottles of this and you're really finished. At the opening of the Sydney Bridge Club, they were fishing them out of the main sewers every half an hour.
Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is Perth Pink. This is a bottle with a message in and the message is "beware". This is not a wine for drinking; this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.
Another good fighting wine is Melbourne Old & Yellow, which is particularly heavy and should be used only for hand-to-hand combat.
Quite the reverse is true of Château Chunder, which is an appellation contrôlée, specially grown for those keen on regurgitation; a fine wine which really opens up the sluices at both ends. Real emetic fans will also go for a Hobart Muddy and a prize winning Cuivre Reserve Château Bottled Nuit San Wogga Wogga, which has a bouquet like an aborigine's armpit."
Jul 13th, 2008, 05:40 AM
#35
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Next weekend, we will fly to England to spend a couple of days in Devon.
Reading this thread, I am considering driving to Camel Valley winery (I understand, "camel" is the celtic word for "district"
. However, they sell their sparkling wine, starting from 19.95 up to 29.95 GBP per bottle. I could buy two or three bottles of excellent Champagne for one bottle of English sparkling wine!
(We will probably do the drive only in case it is raining heavily.)
Reading this thread, I am considering driving to Camel Valley winery (I understand, "camel" is the celtic word for "district"
. However, they sell their sparkling wine, starting from 19.95 up to 29.95 GBP per bottle. I could buy two or three bottles of excellent Champagne for one bottle of English sparkling wine!(We will probably do the drive only in case it is raining heavily.)
Jul 13th, 2008, 10:21 AM
#36
Not sure about the ponce bit. Howvever, the Brits are lucky to have access to one of the most sophisticated and extensive wine industries in the world. Unfortunatly we don't make it but we do drink it.
In terms of beer can I suggest Ringwood ale based in Hampshire. I also have a soft spot for Wadsworth 6 X and Flowers bitter but we all have our soft spots
In terms of beer can I suggest Ringwood ale based in Hampshire. I also have a soft spot for Wadsworth 6 X and Flowers bitter but we all have our soft spots
Jul 13th, 2008, 11:24 AM
#37
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"Wine growing nations are invariably crap at winning wars (or turn up after the real fighting's been done)"
Australia? New Zealand? South Effrica? Hell, even Canada has a wine industry, albeit based mostly on ice.
Without that lot, we'd be speaking German. And would have been since 1916.
Mind you, our trains would be running on time.
Australia? New Zealand? South Effrica? Hell, even Canada has a wine industry, albeit based mostly on ice.
Without that lot, we'd be speaking German. And would have been since 1916.
Mind you, our trains would be running on time.
Jul 13th, 2008, 11:50 AM
#38
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"Ponce". From the Old Bill. Indeed. Dixon of Dock Green must be turning in his grave. A little more EO training for your officers I think, Sir Ian. Or maybe Life On Mars wasn't fiction after all.
Wadworth 6X, yes. Brewed just down the road in Devizes.
Wadworth 6X, yes. Brewed just down the road in Devizes.
Jul 14th, 2008, 01:11 AM
#39
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For Cholmondley_Warner, on the subject of Beers. As the sun sets early here this evening on a cold winter's night in the Antipodes, we start with some Belgian beers. I'm having a Chimay Blue and my wife is having a Leffe Blonde. So,when we come there to England we need the good stuff and I don't mean anything made in England that is warm or flat .
We like lagers and ales, in particular, that are rich, complex and viscous tending to 8-10+%. So if you know anything available everywhere UK or in Cornwall or the Midlands, please point me to them.
Belgium is all about microbrewers and overgrown microbrewers, even capable of taking over that awful stuff called Bud (why should they bother).
The Belgians describe most beers around 8-10% as being wine styles.
So moving on to wine I opened the file on our BA flights in 2006 and the wine we enjoyed was Three Choirs Estate Reserve 2004
Bacchus. They described it as an intensely aromatic grape variety admirably suited to England’s cool climate – in this case Gloucestershire.
It is good to see Bacchanalian wine is doing well there !
. We like lagers and ales, in particular, that are rich, complex and viscous tending to 8-10+%. So if you know anything available everywhere UK or in Cornwall or the Midlands, please point me to them.
Belgium is all about microbrewers and overgrown microbrewers, even capable of taking over that awful stuff called Bud (why should they bother).
The Belgians describe most beers around 8-10% as being wine styles.
So moving on to wine I opened the file on our BA flights in 2006 and the wine we enjoyed was Three Choirs Estate Reserve 2004
Bacchus. They described it as an intensely aromatic grape variety admirably suited to England’s cool climate – in this case Gloucestershire.
It is good to see Bacchanalian wine is doing well there !
Jul 14th, 2008, 05:31 AM
#40
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Australia? New Zealand? South Effrica? Hell, even Canada has a wine industry, albeit based mostly on ice.>>>>
They did all their war-winning before they had a wine industry. Australia started a war indusrty and went into Vietnam. Coincidence? Methinks not.
>>>We like lagers and ales, in particular, that are rich, complex and viscous tending to 8-10+%. So if you know anything available everywhere UK or in Cornwall or the Midlands, please point me to them. >>>
Well not being an actual tramp I don't drink beers like special brew. However it sounds lik e yopu might like to get a few tins of barley wine down your neck with your fellow minded al-fresco imbibers at the bus shelter.
What a thread. Ponces and tramps. What more could one wish for.
They did all their war-winning before they had a wine industry. Australia started a war indusrty and went into Vietnam. Coincidence? Methinks not.
>>>We like lagers and ales, in particular, that are rich, complex and viscous tending to 8-10+%. So if you know anything available everywhere UK or in Cornwall or the Midlands, please point me to them. >>>
Well not being an actual tramp I don't drink beers like special brew. However it sounds lik e yopu might like to get a few tins of barley wine down your neck with your fellow minded al-fresco imbibers at the bus shelter.
What a thread. Ponces and tramps. What more could one wish for.
