I said I'd start a new thread relating to what we are doing with the idea of renting an RV and traveling through Europe for 3-4 weeks in July 2009.

Our thoughts behind the RV rental is that it may be less expensive than renting cars/taking trains. It may be more convenient. It could be an enjoyable experience.

I'm trying to do an absolute comparison, with no tilt from one idea to another. So here goes the first part...

We will fly into Amsterdam on June 29 and fly out of Munich on July 28. FF miles bought the tickets. We will stay in Amsterdam until July 2.

In our research we have found several companies that rent RVs. It seems that McRent has the best reputation. An American consolidator, IdeaMerge, is able to provide the same contract on the McRent products, at a discount of about $100-$300 less than McRent charges. I have found numerous positive reviews on IdeaMerge and no real negative reviews.

Germany is by far the least expensive country to rent from. The reason for pickup/dropoff in the same city is the cost of 1 way drop off, it is crazy high, like $1,000. I have enough FF miles to book 2 tickets across Europe, or take the train.

We intend to spend the last 5 - 7 days in Bavaria and have located a great apartment, so the actual travel time on continent will be from July 3 - about July 21.

I am comparing the cost of the RV against the cost of car rental for the entire time (03/07 through 27/07). I also did a comparison of only renting the RV until the 21st and then renting a car until the 27th. We will spend the last night in Munich, for the morning flight.

With the RV we would be staying in both paid campsites and also free sites, but I've used costs by considering only paid sites. With the car, I assume B&Bs.

I use the following assumptions...

1) Fuel Mileage -
RV gets 20 mpg. Car gets 30 mpg. Fuel cost at $8 per gal.

2) Accomodations -
Campsite avg cost is $30 per night. B&B avg cost is $100 per night.

3) Food -
Most breakfast's we would do in the RV - $5 cost / meal. With car, B&B breakfast is included - $0 cost/.

50% of lunches would be in the RV. 75% of lunches with car would be restaurants. Avg cost $10 /pers / meal.

25% of suppers with RV, in RV.
100% of suppers with car, in restaurants. Avg cost $20 / pers / meal.

So, with all of that said, figuring everything else would be the same, these are the numbers I have come up with...


RV

Rental – Munich to Munich, July 3 – July 27....$2,500
Fuel – 2,000 miles...$800
Food - $1,100
Site rentals - $600

Total : $5,000

Car / B&B

Rental – Munich to Munich, July 3 – July 27...$950
Fuel – 2,000 miles...$500
Food - $1,600
B&B rental - $2,100

Total : $5,150


So, the costs are essentially the same. May be a small adjustment downwards on the RV, depending on the number of free sites we use. So if the costs don't matter, what do you get with the RV over the Car or visa-versa?

#1 thing with RV is convenience. I don't have to pack and unpack bags and lug them around. If I want to use the restroom, I don't have to look, I have one. If I want to pull over and rest for an hour, well you can't compare a bed with a reclined car seat. If I want a quick snack, I've got it. If I don't feel good, I can just stay where I am and don't have to worry about the B&B being booked for another night.

#1 thing with Car is comfort. Let's face it, a B&B is going to be more comfortable than an RV. Taking a real shower or real bath is a biggie. At the same time, we have already said that when we get tired of the RV, we can always rent a B&B for the night.

I also look at our enjoyment in meeting people. I know in the States, most people interact in campgrounds, that is not the case in hotels and B&B's. Being able to spend the night in a vineyard or alongside the Mosel River is a pretty big plus, especially at no cost.

The negatives to the RV is restrictions in location. While the unit we are considering is nowhere near the size of our Bounder here in the States, it is bigger than a car. That reduces the number of places we can go in some towns. To be honest, I often park outside of town and either walk or bus in anyway.

Oh, and I've already downloaded, at no cost, associated files for my AutoRoute program for most sites throughout Western Europe.

As we begin to actually book things, I'll keep you all abreast on what we are doing and how it is going. Any thoughts, criticisms and ideas are appreciated. I'll be posting links as I use them and verify them.

Oh, an if I rented the RV only until the 21st and rented a car from the 21st - 27th, the differential would only be about $100 lower using the combination. For me, not having to do multiple checkin/checkouts is worth the extra $100.

Is the RV rental restricted to certain countries? I know you aren't allowed to take car rentals in to certain countries.

Actually, there are very few restrictions. Eastern Europe is ok. Israel, Iraq and Iran, etc. are not.

One thing you should check is how many free Kms you get with the camper - and how much they charge if you go over that number. The costs can pretty soon mount up if you do go over the free Kms.
If you have an apartment for the last week, then I would swap the camper for a car for that week, simply to make parking and getting around easier.
Are you leaving Ams on July 2nd or July 3rd?

Unlimited mileage.

The RV/car swap was one of the things we considered, but the differential is only about $100 less, so not having to do multiple check ins is worth the $100 to me.

How many are in your group? If you are a couple I think you have chosen a lesser option. The one thing you have not figured in the price is transport from your camp ground to a city. Is this a trip to see countryside or cities? If a city trip I wouldnt even rent a car but book cheap transport ahead of time.

While we intend to visit some cities, most of our trip is geared to the countryside and smaller towns. Regardless of whether we have a car or RV, there will still be the cost of getting from where we are staying into the city. But that is minor.

I'm not a big fan on driving in any city, whether LA or Rome. But I have actually run my 34' RV through NYC several times and hated every minute of it.

What I was getting at in my first accounting was that the cost differential between a car/B&B and RV/campsite is negligible. I'm looking more at the convenience of it and the capability of cultural interchange.

While the thought of a month-long RV rental in Europe has always had an appeal to me, after perhaps 50,000 miles driving in Europe over the years on vacations I'd opt for a car. Probably mostly for the convenience. The places we like to go are just not conducive to the width of an RV, and believe me, there are a lot of those. And perhaps there are campsites near the more touristy places (although I've never seen a pictorial sign indicating a camping area in 30 years), but I rather doubt their frequency. If you're not multi-lingual, you'd better have a very good map of all campsites. Imagine, for example, if a Rumanian came to Kansas and asked (in Rumanian) where he could camp; no one would be able to respond. You'll be in much the same position.
Too, I think you'd have a better chance at interaction in a B&B/pension than in a campsite, if you did find one.

Have you checked the rental companies in which countries they will not rent or allow the renters to enter?

Besides small towns I hate driving in the larger cities, unexpected narrow streets and different attitudes about driving.

To clarify something, the RV we are looking at is like a big van. It isn't that much bigger than a large car. It sleeps 2 and that is it. It is the next size up from a VW camper bus.

Here is a link to the IdeaMerge site for the camper...

https://www.ideamerge.com/motorhomes...1_specs_2.html

As to the number of campsites. This has been a real eye-opener to me. They are literally everywhere.

I have downloaded the AutoRoute push-pin maps for those in France and Germany. In France there are over 2,500 free sites, 1,200 French Passion sites and 3,500 paid sites. In Germany there are even more. The funny part is that the free sites in France are limited to only motorized RVs, not trailers or tents. In most cases the free sites are maintained by the local municipality, many have electrical/water hookup (about $5 per night)and dump stations.

As to where the sites are located, they are literally everywhere. I have found several message boards, like Fodors, that deal directly with this. From paid camping areas inside Paris ($45 per night) to little free sites on the banks of the Danube, to free downtown sites in Rome on the Tiber.

Essentially all of the paid campgrounds provide all services, kind of like KOAs in the States.

With the "French Passions", it is a group of 1,200 French vineyards and farmers that allow you to park on their farm at no cost. Yes, they want you to buy some wine or produce. So these are by no means normal tourist areas.

That is what has drawn us to this idea. The costs are about the same. It is the variation in normal tourism that attracts us. And the convenience.

I'll compile a list of websites we have found relating to all of this.

tomboy,

You need to understand the type of vehicle being discussed... it's the size of a standard European delivery type van. They can and do go anywhere and everywhere in Europe! The only places you can't get into are parking garages. Some parking lots, especially in the UK, have height barriers as well.

As Dave has discovered there are THOUSANDS of campgrounds in Europe. In France, almost every municipality has a campground run by the town. Many are IN the towns and not hidden somewhere out in the hinterland so I'm surprised you've never seen a sign. You will definitely NOT feel like a Rumanian in the Mid-West!

Rob

DH and I took a rivercruise from Budapest to Amsterdam in 2007 and all along the banks of The Danube,Mainz and Rhine were many campers in RV's and tents.Some just looked like they had stopped to camp and others were obviously camped in campgrounds.

I find the mileage estimates for the van a bit optimistic. 20 mpg? I rented an Opel van last December and got around 18 mpg on the highway. It wasn't loaded up with beds, toilets and a kitchen - just 5 other passengers. And I think a good diesel car will get more than 30 mpg.

After years of very careful deliberation I decided that for my wife and I, the camping thing just doesn't make sense. We go away to get away from cooking our own meals. In fact, eating out is probably the crowning event of each day in Europe. And those German breakfasts served at hotels are vastly superior to anything I think I could whip up in my camper.

As far as meeting people, again the dining experience has always been a highlight for us because very often we are seated with locals in crowded restaurants. We've had some fascinating conversations that way.

And as far as the idea that campers are more prone to being friendly and "nice", that hasn't exactly been my experience when the wife and I camped in the USA. Sure, folks were friendly in the communal washrooms and showers and at the toilet dumpsites, but at night when I desperately wanted sleep, the noise from every campsite kept me awake at night. Campers we've been around preferred to stay up late partying around the campfire then slept-in in the morning. Perhaps Europeans are different.

I find the few extra bucks for a hotel/pension/Gasthof/Zimmer Frei/B&B worth it just for the amenities. And every morning when we go down for breakfast we are greeted by each guest with a "Guten Morgen", "Bonjour" or "Buenos Dias" as we enter the room. There is nothing like crawling under a freshly fluffed Eiderdown comforter in an antique-decorated wood-paneled hotel room.

But obviously I am biased against the whole camping thing. Bad experiences in my youth I suppose. I just look at my European jaunts as a chance to live it up a bit even if it means staying in a farmhouse, vacation home or Soviet-era concrete apartment.

I get worked-up enough trying to maneuver a little Fiat through tiny European villages and roads without needing the extra anxiety of finding parking for my big old van, dumping waste, getting to the campsite early enough to stake-out my claim, worrying about roof clearance, insurance liabilities and how I'm gonna get back to the campsite after a night out on the town.

I think also that one's overall approach to travel also determines whether the camper idea will work: I prefer to go at a somewhat breakneck speed. I try to see as much as I can in my two weeks of vacation. I'm always amazed by other Fodorites who criticize other prospective visitors for being "too ambitious". For trying to squeeze too much into a day. I'm simply not one to sit back and smell the roses or soak in the ambience. Each trip I take could be the last so I want to see and do as much as I can. That's my way of relaxing. But each of us have our own preferences. That's what makes this site so popular. I've learned about many many ways of experiencing Europe that I had never considered before frequenting Fodor's.

Others may prefer to stay at one place, like a campground maybe, and take it easy over a bottle of wine, some bread and cheese and maybe some opera in the background. Gimme a beer, a couple Wursts and some bad European rock!

Dave,

thanks for the thread and your figures on cost. I am surprised that it isn't more of a cost saver to camp instead of B&B it.

I think the van looks good and comfy. it helps to be long time campers/RVers I'd say. We camped with a small pop-up all over Germany, Britain and Switzerland many years ago and we had friends we were stationed with who bought a VW van much more basic than yours who did the same and also had a great time of it.

As to the noise issue, back in the 80's German camping was quiet and people were mindful of their neighbors.

If you could list some of the Fodor like sites you have found helpful that would be great.

thanks...lynda

For Lynda and all,

I love how this thread is going.

I'm trying to do a high end estimate on the Van costs and a mid-range estimate on the B&B. Actually, the paid camping costs seem to be about $20 per night or less across the continent and the Aires (free sites) run about $6 if you use electricity and water. I calculated everything at $30 per night. Yes, there are some more expensive places, like the campground inside Paris, but even it is only $50 per night.

What I am primarily looking at is not so much a major savings on money, but to instead have a more enjoyable trip. I absolutely HATE packing and unpacking (even though I am REALLY, REALLY good at it--ha ha). Realistically, it would be far cheaper to stay at gites and rent a car, but then that packing thing comes into play. And it still brings up the need to probably reserve in advance, that will be the high season.

We want to "tour", to see the countryside, to stop when we want, stay as long as we want and not have to make too many reservations. While we expect to see a lot, we are in no real rush. Yes, if we do the trip we are considering, that is about 2,000 miles, in 3 weeks. 100 miles a day. But it could be several hundred miles shorter. If we find a place we really like, we will stay for a few days and adjust the schedule from there.

We're not big on fancy restaurants and hotels. Some of our most memorable meals included eating a sausage dog on the steps going down to the Thames, having a fantastic picnic with the entire family in the amphitheater at Ostia Antica, grilling steaks on the side of a waterfall in Venezuela.

I lived on a sailboat in the Caribbean for 12 years. I've been camping all of my life. As I got older, I needed more comfort. While the tents on the side of a NC lake were great, my back now says "give me something that at least seems like a real bed". We still have our little pop-up (in fact I'm rebuilding it now) and probably use it more often than the 34' beast of a motorhome we have.

Yes, having a king-sized bed, full sized frig, dual ACs and bathtub isn't really camping...which is why we seldom take "Rolling Thunder" out on the road anymore. Plus the 6 mpg gas.

Which brings up something that has been asked about. I do not doubt the 22 mpg claim of mileage on that German RV. I rented a large diesel van in the UK a couple of years ago that got over 30 mpg. I was stunned. By reading some of the other blogs on European RVs, 20 mpg is mid-level. I could park the German RV inside mine and still have 14 feet left over.



More to come...

dave and regina

Here are some of the links we have used in planning this trip...

This is a couple that has been RV in Europe for years. Lots of good info on a lot of countries...

http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_campsites.htm

This link is about a couple that have shipped their US made RV to Europe and have been using it for 2 years...

http://www.papillontravels.net/

This is a UK based organization that has a wealth of info on the continent...
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/for...egory-view.asp

German tourism site, camping related link...

http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB...g_holidays.htm

Well, it didn't take long for that idea to be dumped. Here is why...

While I have never been in an accident and I have only had one speeding ticket in 41 years of driving, I ALWAYS make sure that the rental car insurances are set to $0 deductible. That may be as part of the contract, or by purchasing a third party policy or using my Visa card. If I have any chance of liability, I don't do it.

Seems that with the RV rentals, there is a 1,000 euro deductible, with NO additional third party coverage available and Visa will not cover an RV of any type.

So, while I really liked the idea, I absolutely refuse to do it if there is a deductible of any kind.

Next post will tell you all what we have booked. Yes, the trip has changed (as mine always do)



dave