The French are getting a bad rap!
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:39 AM
#21
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One more quick observation-- the complaint that the French refuse to speak English to us.That's probably because they don't HAVE too! We're the ones in their country and should respect THEIR culture. Anyone who speaks English to us in any country is doing us a great courtesy !! I'll shut up now.
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:40 AM
#22
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LOL, people are forever whining about the french. Our recent brief visit was the most pleasant yet, out of the dozens of times in that lovely city. It seems apparent that the biggest moaners at the most infrequenet travellers. I also find that the better hotels lead to a generally more enjoyable experience, given the better service and amenities. Sometimes it pays to spend a bit more rather than cadging every cent or sou.
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:25 AM
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People who describe an incident involving a rude person in a foreign country and then try to generalize that to the entire population always make me laugh. Have they never run into a rude person in their home country? Would they judge their own population that way?
Similarly, people who visit for a week or two and never have an incident use that as proof that rudeness doesn't exist. Actually, they were probably just lucky.
The bottom line is that you can run into a rude person anywhere in the world. All that means is that you met a rude person. One of the things that makes travel so enjoyable is that the vast majority of people in the world are quite nice among themselves and to foreign vistors.
Similarly, people who visit for a week or two and never have an incident use that as proof that rudeness doesn't exist. Actually, they were probably just lucky.
The bottom line is that you can run into a rude person anywhere in the world. All that means is that you met a rude person. One of the things that makes travel so enjoyable is that the vast majority of people in the world are quite nice among themselves and to foreign vistors.
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:37 AM
#25
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Agree with above who say that there are no more /no less rude people in Paris than any other large city. My experience is that if you are polite and go in with the attitude that I may not understand the culture so must not try to judge, everything works out.
What irks me is people who go over there and assume that since it's a large, "Western" country, therefore things must be the same as back home.
For people who say that the French are rude, my three questions would be : have you ever been, preferably more than once? where they more/more frequently rude than other large cities you have been to (including those in your own country) and lastly, is it possible that there was a cultural reason for how they behaved?
If a French person came to America, should he expect to be able to speak French, anywhere? Should he expect the local store to take euros? Should he be wrong to be put off when you offer him corn on the cob ("we feed that to cattle back home?!" as a previous posting once pointed out
Frnace and Paris have a DIFFERENT culture than NA, people need to realize that... better in some ways, worse in other ways, the same in some ways, different in other ways....
It's NOT back home, and that's one of the reasons I go. I don't travel to bring my country with me wherever I go.
But yes, there unfortunately will be rude people, and if they are encountered in Paris, shame on them, but shame on me if I generalize because of that.
What irks me is people who go over there and assume that since it's a large, "Western" country, therefore things must be the same as back home.
For people who say that the French are rude, my three questions would be : have you ever been, preferably more than once? where they more/more frequently rude than other large cities you have been to (including those in your own country) and lastly, is it possible that there was a cultural reason for how they behaved?
If a French person came to America, should he expect to be able to speak French, anywhere? Should he expect the local store to take euros? Should he be wrong to be put off when you offer him corn on the cob ("we feed that to cattle back home?!" as a previous posting once pointed out
Frnace and Paris have a DIFFERENT culture than NA, people need to realize that... better in some ways, worse in other ways, the same in some ways, different in other ways....
It's NOT back home, and that's one of the reasons I go. I don't travel to bring my country with me wherever I go.
But yes, there unfortunately will be rude people, and if they are encountered in Paris, shame on them, but shame on me if I generalize because of that.
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:50 AM
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Before my first trip to France, I too heard tale after tale about the rude French. Guess I went to the wrong places because I never experienced rudeness in either Paris or Provence. Now I'm planning a trip to Quebec City and am hearing tales of extreme rudeness from people there. I may experience a rude person at some point, but I'll bet that I'll come home loving QC as much as I love Paris.
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:58 AM
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I think you guys are missing two big issues:
1. For many Americans, their first big-city experience is Paris. Therefore, much of the trouble they run into is caused by not knowing how things work in a big city (why is everyone so rude? Because you are HOLDING UP THE WORKS). The culture and language barriers don't help, either.
2. Allow me to explain the Joe Hatefrance responses to these questions:
"If a French person came to America, should he expect to be able to speak French, anywhere?"
Of course not, the international language of business is English. French is a dying language, only hundreds of millions of people speak it. It is reasonable that labels in the Museum of Modern Art in New York are English-only, but a horrible burden that the labels in the Louvre are French-only. Also, all French people speak English like Inspector Clouseau. They are just pretending not to to be rude.
"Should he expect the local store to take euros?"
Of course not, no one wants that funny-looking money. Foreign Exchange markets are all lies, the US Dollar is the most desired and valuable currency in the world, everyone wants to use it. The Euro is a curiosity, like Disney Dollars. It is reasonable to expect to use US Dollars in France, just like in Tijuana.
"Should he be wrong to be put off when you offer him corn on the cob"
All normal people eat well-done steaks, corn, and potatoes. Maybe they eat Pizza dipped in ranch dressing on special occasions. Anyone who does not eat these things is being difficult and pretentious. It's OK to tell waiters the chef cooked it wrong, but not OK for the waiter to tell you something is eaten in a certain fashion.
1. For many Americans, their first big-city experience is Paris. Therefore, much of the trouble they run into is caused by not knowing how things work in a big city (why is everyone so rude? Because you are HOLDING UP THE WORKS). The culture and language barriers don't help, either.
2. Allow me to explain the Joe Hatefrance responses to these questions:
"If a French person came to America, should he expect to be able to speak French, anywhere?"
Of course not, the international language of business is English. French is a dying language, only hundreds of millions of people speak it. It is reasonable that labels in the Museum of Modern Art in New York are English-only, but a horrible burden that the labels in the Louvre are French-only. Also, all French people speak English like Inspector Clouseau. They are just pretending not to to be rude.
"Should he expect the local store to take euros?"
Of course not, no one wants that funny-looking money. Foreign Exchange markets are all lies, the US Dollar is the most desired and valuable currency in the world, everyone wants to use it. The Euro is a curiosity, like Disney Dollars. It is reasonable to expect to use US Dollars in France, just like in Tijuana.
"Should he be wrong to be put off when you offer him corn on the cob"
All normal people eat well-done steaks, corn, and potatoes. Maybe they eat Pizza dipped in ranch dressing on special occasions. Anyone who does not eat these things is being difficult and pretentious. It's OK to tell waiters the chef cooked it wrong, but not OK for the waiter to tell you something is eaten in a certain fashion.
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:04 PM
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TravelerGina, I think Canadians as a rule are the nicest people in the universe, and that includes the Quebecois. (Hope I'm not setting you up.)
Next are Spaniards: imagine a guy leaving his bus line heading home for lunch to walk us to the Puerta del Sol, though astounded that we were going to take the subway only one stop to our hotel. (Friend had full leg cast; I trotted along beside the guy while she followed: clump, CLUMP, clump, CLUMP!)
But the French are almost as nice, almost sweet (in that case perhaps not in Paris). For example, the guy in the porcelain store in Arles who went to the PO during lunch to find out how much it would cost to ship our teapots and stood waiting, peeking from behind the curtains, for us to return at 2:00 so we could pay for it all.
I love the French and have been shown countless kindnesses in Paris. (As well as experienced the occasional brusque or businesslike big-city dweller.)
Next are Spaniards: imagine a guy leaving his bus line heading home for lunch to walk us to the Puerta del Sol, though astounded that we were going to take the subway only one stop to our hotel. (Friend had full leg cast; I trotted along beside the guy while she followed: clump, CLUMP, clump, CLUMP!)
But the French are almost as nice, almost sweet (in that case perhaps not in Paris). For example, the guy in the porcelain store in Arles who went to the PO during lunch to find out how much it would cost to ship our teapots and stood waiting, peeking from behind the curtains, for us to return at 2:00 so we could pay for it all.
I love the French and have been shown countless kindnesses in Paris. (As well as experienced the occasional brusque or businesslike big-city dweller.)
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:06 PM
#31
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Hello gentle readers. I have been reading this thread with interest although unfortunatly I have never been to France.
But let me tell you this. I have had the same comments that all of you have had regarding France for Italy
Surprised? Well don't be. The comments over all the many years have been from people who do the "Today is Tuesday it must be Belgium" tours, or go to Italy without any idea or knowledge of their customs, their heritage their culture.
As others here have stated, every country has grumps (are not we to sometimes feeling grumpy), rude people (now that we never are
) etc.
So many post have been written regarding different culture differences such as "the waiter didn't bring us the check" because they did not know in Europe one is not rushed out the door when the meal is finished. You ask for the check. And on and on.
Italy, I wish I had a hundred dollars everytime some dope said "but how can you feel safe in Italy with the Mafia".
My point is this. Just ignore all the negative comments regarding the country you are traveling to. The naysayers have no clue as to what they are talking about.
But let me tell you this. I have had the same comments that all of you have had regarding France for Italy
Surprised? Well don't be. The comments over all the many years have been from people who do the "Today is Tuesday it must be Belgium" tours, or go to Italy without any idea or knowledge of their customs, their heritage their culture.
As others here have stated, every country has grumps (are not we to sometimes feeling grumpy), rude people (now that we never are
) etc.So many post have been written regarding different culture differences such as "the waiter didn't bring us the check" because they did not know in Europe one is not rushed out the door when the meal is finished. You ask for the check. And on and on.
Italy, I wish I had a hundred dollars everytime some dope said "but how can you feel safe in Italy with the Mafia".
My point is this. Just ignore all the negative comments regarding the country you are traveling to. The naysayers have no clue as to what they are talking about.
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:33 PM
#33
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I've made more than 65 trips to France, and yes I've encountered the odd rude, aloof, uptight French person, but if I'd made 65 trips to Nebraska I bet that number would be the same or more.
It IS true that more than 20 years ago there were more of the stereotypical "rude" French waiters than there are these days, when everyone has figured out that being rude doesn't bring in the euros as fast as being charming. Go to Chartiers if you want a taste of the "old, rude France." It's a hoot.
Besides, it's just a Paris thing. It's a big city where people are rushing to get places and late for meetings and dealing with crowds. Outside the city in the countryside, you couldn't find more hospitable people.
That said, there is a certain "edge" to French people that rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way. I've had countless conversations with French people in the service industry that ran along the lines of me asking a question and getting a response that was "c'est impossible, Madame." I've learned over many years to immediately question the French person's "it's impossible" response and to suggest alternatives until the French person concedes that it may not really be impossible after all. The French like to argue, albeit goodnaturedly, and when I'm in France and meet with resistance, I like to argue goodnaturedly, too. I usually end up getting what I was looking for and with no hard feelings on either side.
I was also blessed with an education that taught me French from the age of 7, so I can go at it with them in their own language, which usually subdues them pretty quickly. But I don't even have to employ that strategy very often any more because where I travel in France the vast majority of people are invariably incredibly sweet and kind.
I think that old myth is just that. I find certain other European nationalities to be far more unaccommodating and rude, if you're going to make generalizations, which I'm not fond of making.
It IS true that more than 20 years ago there were more of the stereotypical "rude" French waiters than there are these days, when everyone has figured out that being rude doesn't bring in the euros as fast as being charming. Go to Chartiers if you want a taste of the "old, rude France." It's a hoot.
Besides, it's just a Paris thing. It's a big city where people are rushing to get places and late for meetings and dealing with crowds. Outside the city in the countryside, you couldn't find more hospitable people.
That said, there is a certain "edge" to French people that rubs a lot of Americans the wrong way. I've had countless conversations with French people in the service industry that ran along the lines of me asking a question and getting a response that was "c'est impossible, Madame." I've learned over many years to immediately question the French person's "it's impossible" response and to suggest alternatives until the French person concedes that it may not really be impossible after all. The French like to argue, albeit goodnaturedly, and when I'm in France and meet with resistance, I like to argue goodnaturedly, too. I usually end up getting what I was looking for and with no hard feelings on either side.
I was also blessed with an education that taught me French from the age of 7, so I can go at it with them in their own language, which usually subdues them pretty quickly. But I don't even have to employ that strategy very often any more because where I travel in France the vast majority of people are invariably incredibly sweet and kind.
I think that old myth is just that. I find certain other European nationalities to be far more unaccommodating and rude, if you're going to make generalizations, which I'm not fond of making.
Jan 27th, 2005, 07:52 PM
#34
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SergioL, tell us more about your "recent visit", or should we do a search using the name TravelLaughter? Or should we do a search under "things I made up under one of my many screen names"?
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:26 PM
#36
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Hi LoveItaly--glad to hear you're feeling better! I get Mafia comments all the time simply because of my Italian heritage--talk about generalizing! I do believe you get the same nonsense about Italy-I've heard it all also and it disgusts me. You are right of course, we should just ignore all of the negative ,ignorance but sometimes it just gets me sooo mad!
Jan 27th, 2005, 09:53 PM
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Hello Lexie, yes dear I am finally over that terrible virus. It was really awful (whine, whine). And as my Italian grandmother always use to say, the only thing good about feeling sick is you really appreciate it when you are not. Too true, LOL.
Now about the stupid and ignorant comments regarding Italy and Italians. I have lived with it all my life. Will not go into details as obviously with you I do not have to. But oh yes, it can get me soooo mad. Usually I hold my tongue but from time to time I have not. You know how that goes, an ignorant comment on a really bad day and one cannot keep silent any longer.
And I have not have been to France, but the few people I have known here in California from France have been beautiful.
I also have by marriage relatives from Russia. Have had comments about that too. They are such beautiful and loving people.
I guess lexie all we can do is just ignore ignorant comments and thinking, as hard as it is to do sometimes.
Take good care and be proud of your background.
Now about the stupid and ignorant comments regarding Italy and Italians. I have lived with it all my life. Will not go into details as obviously with you I do not have to. But oh yes, it can get me soooo mad. Usually I hold my tongue but from time to time I have not. You know how that goes, an ignorant comment on a really bad day and one cannot keep silent any longer.
And I have not have been to France, but the few people I have known here in California from France have been beautiful.
I also have by marriage relatives from Russia. Have had comments about that too. They are such beautiful and loving people.
I guess lexie all we can do is just ignore ignorant comments and thinking, as hard as it is to do sometimes.
Take good care and be proud of your background.
Jan 28th, 2005, 09:37 PM
#38
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Hi StCirc--oh you are sooo lucky to speak French so fluently ! If I am not being too intrusive, may I ask you where you were educated? I can only argue in my own language-- o.k., maybe a little bit in Italian.
Thank you all so much for your keen insights and your very articulately written stories. They were such a pleasure to read. I'd better bone up on my story-telling skills!
Thank you all so much for your keen insights and your very articulately written stories. They were such a pleasure to read. I'd better bone up on my story-telling skills!
Jan 28th, 2005, 09:48 PM
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QC, I agree with you completely,especially in your first statement--"we're holding up the works!" My husband has stated similar observations--he feels the lack of our linquistic skills in a large city is enough to drive anyone to a somewhat impatient comment now or then. Not with the intention of being rude, it's just that they're busy and we're fumbling along.Nobodies fault really, just the way it is in large cities.
Jan 29th, 2005, 06:12 AM
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Preface-I do not speak French. Chapter One- My first trip out of this country (less the typical spring break to the southern islands)was to Paris. I was traveling alone and meeting a friend. I made it through the airport and to the Roissy bus no problem. Bought my ticket from the bus driver and proceeded to find a seat on the bus (like I would do here). Wrong! Driver was trying to drive and instructing me to do something: I'm confused, he gets frustrated, I get more confused, he yells, I begin to panic and think rude French. Adorable young Frenchman took my ticket, validated it, handed it back to me, smiled to ease my panic and motioned for me to now sit down. Chapter Two- My friend takes me to Place Vendome: I am staring at the column, car comes within two inches of me honking, the crazy man inside is swearing in French. Friend says "do you mind getting out of the street!" So that is what those two foot high silver round things represent. Chapter three- Friend takes me to dinner at a nice restaurant: Menu is in French so friend does the speaking and ordering. I'm gazing around when suddenly the waiter extends his hand in front of me. Like any polite American would do, I shook his hand. He then politely states in English "No, the menu". I blush, friend and waiter laugh, I blush even more, another waiter brings a glass of water, people at nearby tables begin to chuckle, I cover my face, a third waiter brings a pitcher of water, my friend states "they are not laughing at you they are laughing with you." Skip ahead to chapter twelve- bought a French phrase book, learned the phrase "I do not speak French", always getting little smirks before a reply in English. One day, eighteenish year old clerk corrected my grammer. I asked her what I had been saying all this time. Translation "I don't understand, speak French!" ---Chapter Twenty two- Standing at the corner of Champs and Concorde: Strangers (tourist)ask me if I will take their photo. I attempt to take photo, Paris Police Officer with big gun asks if I speak French. Stated "No", his response "Leave now!" Rude-No, Language barrier-Yes, Security issue- Most DEFINITELY, I immediately realized the background in the picture would have been the American Embassy/Crillion Hotel/ect. depending on where they stood. To a tourist-innocent. To a law enforcement officer-possible terrorist threat/info gathering. Skip ahead again to chapter twenty four- I've learned how to dress, walk, and give the appearance of a Parisian now. Nice spring day in May of 2004. Picnic lunch with friend in Luxembourg gardens. Young college age couple come up to me (I must look like a professional photographer)stumbled with their 1/2 English 1/2 French asking me to take a photo of them in front of fountain and how to work their camera. Took photo, they thanked me, another young college age boy immediately approached me and stumbled with even worse French and asked me to do the same thing. Friend sitting on park bench finally states "You are so bad, why don't you just speak English to them." Point to this story. I have come full circle and seen Americans/tourist through the eyes of the French. Disclosure-these really are true incidents.
