I have a specific question about bulkheads, specifically those in business/premium economy.

We're travelling on Virgin in September to London in premium economy. We're travelling with a toddler and have requested the bulkhead seats... but I've since found out she's probably too big for the sky cot they provide... and one site I went to actually said for a toddler it's better NOT to request the bulkhead because the armrests don't lift up in the bulkhead seats. I guess presumably because they're used for the trays and now the movie screens.

We've been virtually promised the bulkhead seats every time I call (even though all you seasoned ff posters insist they're reserved for ffers), but now I'm wondering if I'd rather not get bulkhead if the armrest between us can't be lifted up so we can have some more room for comfort.

Of my 4 trips to Europe, I've gotten the bulkhead seats twice, on a round trip on Air France in 2000. (And I wasn't even a member of their Espace club.) Just can't remember if those armrests went up... and they were airbus, not 747s.

Thanks in advance if anyone knows this.

Or, if there's a better place to ask this... isn't there a website somewhere that you can see all the plane configurations, etc? Does anyone know that link?

Thanks again,
kat

seatguru.com

Kat, my husband and I flew on Delta last year to Italy, bulkhead seats. At first I was thrilled, thinking of all that extra legroom, but that quickly changed when I saw the armrests didn't fold away. It was the most HORRIBLE trans-Atlantic flight I've ever taken. Talk about uncomfortable. It was impossible to sleep, even with the Ambien I took! Imagine being strapped to a seat bolt upright and trying to sleep. It can't be done. I'll never fly bulkhead again.

thanks for the link to Seatguru.com. OMG... there aren't any bulkhead seats in premium on our flight. only the exit row, which the won't give to children. So I guess I'll call them and get an assigned seat in the morning. Thanks!

I'd rather not show up there and have to do a bunch of shuffling around.

~kat

You won't be the only person with a toddler on your flight, stop worrying about these things. Also, I'd be very careful about booking business (which is Virgin's top cabin) with a toddler, your other passengers will not appreciate the noise!

The whole point of premium cabins is that the seats are further apart, so if you want to be close to your child (which I assume you do) then fly economy.

M_kingdom, I doubt that any commercial airline will ever offer an "adults only" seating section because to guarantee such a section would be impractical. As long as airlines practice overbooking (and it doesn't seem as if they are going to drop that practice anytime soon), they will want to retain some flexibility as to where they seat their passengers.

Without getting into an argument as to whether toddlers do or do not inconvenience other passengers, I note that more people sit in economy than in premium, and the total revenue from economy exceeds that of premium. Consequently I don't think the airlines will follow your logic that fewer people will be inconvenienced by this or that situation if the situation is moved to economy, as opposed to premium.

mk, it's Upper Class for Virgin, not Business. I dislike the term but appreciated the service, even with children on board.

kat, good luck getting the seats you desire.

It's business class with a small b - first is a far superior service not offered on any Virgin flights.

My point was that it is inconsiderate to other passengers to bring a potential source of noise into a cabin that people enjoy because of its quiet calm atmosphere.

>My point was that it is inconsiderate to other passengers to bring a potential source of noise into a cabin that people enjoy because of its quiet calm atmosphere. <

It's truly a shame that in the modern world of the nouveau riche, FF miles and upgrades, the lower classes are permitted to drag their pewling, mewling, noisy get everywhere.

"My point was that it is inconsiderate to other passengers to bring a potential source of noise into a cabin that people enjoy because of its quiet calm atmosphere."

And my point is that it is naive not to be considerate of the best interests of the airlines (not to mention other people) simply because their interests are incongruent with yours. On that score, I note that empty airline cabins might indeed be calm and quiet; so, too, are engines that are calm and quiet, because the plane is not flying anywhere owing to the airline's bankruptcy.

What you term a potential source of noise, the airline might term a potential source of income, i.e. a potential customer. Today's toddler is tomorrow's executive.

"Today's toddler is tomorrow's executive. "

I've never ever seen a child under the age of twelve in any business or first cabin, obviously I have been fortunate. However, children under twelve should not be permitted to fly in business or first. If I've paid around 6000GBP for first on a night flight, thinking that I'm definitely going to have peace and a quiet night's sleep, but find a noisy screaming child behind me, I would not be best pleased, would you?

Parents should be thoughtful to others, and not walk around with the attitude that they're so wonderful because they're parents. Millions of people have children, get over yourselves please (not directed to skatterfly). On the continent children are take out late at night and always behave, because they are used to being out late and sleep during the afternoon. Americans or British copying this behaviour are never successful as the children are not used to it - give the child an early dinner and leave them with a babysitter if you wish to dine late. Screaming children in a sophisticated restaurant is simply ghastly.

Most current business-class and "premium economy" (which is what the OP is talking about) seats have immovable armrests - the tray table is in them, leaving room on the seat backs for the in-flight entertainment screens. So I don't know if switching cabins will matter much.

Depending on the particular airplane in Virgin's fleet, some of the premium economy seats are on the main floor. If the FAs think that kids might be noisy they will probably seat them on the main floor, rather than spoiling the reverie upstairs.

Gardyloo... yes of course we wouldn't want to be upstairs and disturb the quiet of that space. In fact, Virgin has a policy against it. But of course today when I called them they had automatically assigned us seats upstairs, which the agent quickly realized was a mistake and we requested specific seats which we got. Though the agent also confirmed there are not bulkheads on that flight in premium, so I'm glad I checked it out... less shuffling and stress later when we check in.

Interesting point about the armrests... though I'd imagine the entire flying world would be up in arms if all the armrests became immobile... don't people like to take two empty seats and lie down on their flight? (I've never been lucky enough to be on a flight with an open seat).

Anyway, from SeatGuru.com, they only mention the issue of the immoble armrests on the bulkhead rows... what a GREAT site that is.

Kat I'm glad you got this sorted.
It seems to me that your toddler will not be a problem because you obviously have everyone's comfort in mind - not just yours and your little one's but the other passengers' too. The fact is that people travel with their children. Not all of them, however, act responsibly in trying to minimize potential negative impact on everyone on the flight.

We've just gotten another valuable clue in the "who is m kingdom2?" puzzle. I've been reading and wondering about this "character" for some time.

If mkingdom2 has "never" encountered anyone under 12 in Bus or First, the likelihood that he/she actually flies as much as claimed on this board is very, very low. In fact, excruciatingly low. Or perhaps it is true that mkingdom has "never" encountered a child in Bus or First Class because he/she doesn't ACTUALLY fly premium class at all.

My own theory is that most of mkingdom's "advice" comes from a very active imagination and lots of reading. But it is fun to post on these boards as an expert and arbiter of taste and behavior, isn't it?

And of course, does anyone who is really anyone still fly commercial these days?

My dear, if I made anything up it'd be far more exciting than it is at present.

I find it very odd that this site allows mk2 to be as rude and insulting as it is, but any post doing same to it is immediately pulled.

Well, if m_kingdom2 could read, she/he/it would have noticed that skatterfly said they were travelling to London in premium ECONOMY. I assume it's still OK for the common people to fly in this class.

Oh, I don't worry too much about MK2... she certainly has a way of travelling that's different from mine.

Personally, I'm still reeling from being called "nouveau riche" by Ira in this post. Not sure if it was a criticism or a compliment... either way I'm still laughing my #ss off about that one.

My impression of flying Virgin is that it's the most baby friendly of all the int'l airlines and that babies in their premium economy are pretty common. Of course, tried and true seasoned upper class flyers of MK2 stature and social standing probably don't fly Virgin... and I'd never bring my baby into a first class cabin. But I'm glad Virgin was smart to create a "premium economy" for uppity commoners like me who want to spend a little more of my very hard earned money for a smidgen more room and a few premium perks.

~kat

It wasn't exactly you to whom Ira was referring.