Spain (Practical) Trip Report
Sep 19th, 2014, 08:26 PM
#81
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OK, so let me try to explain it to you in a different way, IMDonehere:
The report I posted here consists of less than 1,500 words. It's a collection of 16 PRACTICAL issues, and it's specifically geared for first-time travelers to Spain. It is not meant as an alternative to travel guide books, and it's surely not meant to give guidance to experts like you.
It was written from the PERSPECTIVE OF A FIRST TIMER, the kind of PRACTICAL info I found myself looking for when planning our trip, and IN ADDITION to reading about Spain's history, culture, and political diversity.
So when you complain about "omissions" like not mentioning Tapas, you're just blowing hot air and look for excuses, since I SPECIFICALLY made the notion in my report that "On Spanish cuisine, and the wonderful Spanish restaurants and bars that are part of the local culture, one can read about elsewhere." Bocadillos were mentioned as "cheap yet tasty meal on-the-go."
And, no, my dear IMDonehere, omissions are NOT "errors as well," surely not when one reads this kind of a short, bulleted list.
But since I always try looking for the positive in your writings here, things we can agree upon, here is one I could find: "I just hope the unknowing others seek other sources of advice, so they will [have?] a complete view of Spain." Hey, I fully agree with you! Indeed, this short, practical report is not pretentious enough to be replacing any complete view of Spain, of course not. It's just a LIST OF PRACTICAL THINGS that could help those unknowing first timers.
I hope you now understand what this report was mean to be, and hopefully this can be laid to rest now, so we can finally start enjoying this wonderful weekend.
The report I posted here consists of less than 1,500 words. It's a collection of 16 PRACTICAL issues, and it's specifically geared for first-time travelers to Spain. It is not meant as an alternative to travel guide books, and it's surely not meant to give guidance to experts like you.
It was written from the PERSPECTIVE OF A FIRST TIMER, the kind of PRACTICAL info I found myself looking for when planning our trip, and IN ADDITION to reading about Spain's history, culture, and political diversity.
So when you complain about "omissions" like not mentioning Tapas, you're just blowing hot air and look for excuses, since I SPECIFICALLY made the notion in my report that "On Spanish cuisine, and the wonderful Spanish restaurants and bars that are part of the local culture, one can read about elsewhere." Bocadillos were mentioned as "cheap yet tasty meal on-the-go."
And, no, my dear IMDonehere, omissions are NOT "errors as well," surely not when one reads this kind of a short, bulleted list.
But since I always try looking for the positive in your writings here, things we can agree upon, here is one I could find: "I just hope the unknowing others seek other sources of advice, so they will [have?] a complete view of Spain." Hey, I fully agree with you! Indeed, this short, practical report is not pretentious enough to be replacing any complete view of Spain, of course not. It's just a LIST OF PRACTICAL THINGS that could help those unknowing first timers.
I hope you now understand what this report was mean to be, and hopefully this can be laid to rest now, so we can finally start enjoying this wonderful weekend.
Sep 19th, 2014, 08:48 PM
#82
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The fact that when someone presents facts, you do not debate the facts, but your own narrow personal interest, indicates that you really do not care about other first timers, just your opinion.
I have been traveling to Spain for over 40 years and I am weekly contact with friends and relatives but I usually defer to Kimhe, Ribe, Mike, Linca, and others because they know so much more than I do. But that takes confidence and has the other posters best interest at heart.
And that will be final word on this matter.
I have been traveling to Spain for over 40 years and I am weekly contact with friends and relatives but I usually defer to Kimhe, Ribe, Mike, Linca, and others because they know so much more than I do. But that takes confidence and has the other posters best interest at heart.
And that will be final word on this matter.
Sep 19th, 2014, 10:28 PM
#83
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You've been traveling to Spain for over 40 years, and I just got back from a 3-week stint there. Still, I presented facts, you claimed them to be wrong, but you never proved them to be wrong.
But, hey, unlike you (who already know certain things about foreign travel, but need to show off by sneering at advice that doesn't meet your superior knowledge standards), there are others who did appreciate my list and read them in a positive way, like Ackislander, or isabel, chapla, cjackson, sasaco, Nikki or bvlenci...
...So maybe my list is not as useless as you try to teach us, after all?
But - again - always trying to agree with you, indeed, I do hope that this will be the final word on this matter.
All the best, IMDonehere.
But, hey, unlike you (who already know certain things about foreign travel, but need to show off by sneering at advice that doesn't meet your superior knowledge standards), there are others who did appreciate my list and read them in a positive way, like Ackislander, or isabel, chapla, cjackson, sasaco, Nikki or bvlenci...
...So maybe my list is not as useless as you try to teach us, after all?
But - again - always trying to agree with you, indeed, I do hope that this will be the final word on this matter.
All the best, IMDonehere.
Sep 20th, 2014, 01:21 AM
#84
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Well, I actually have been to Spain several times myself, and knew most of what you mention. I myself was surprised you never ran into chicken, which was ubiquitous when we were there. A lot of what you said is also true of Italy, where I live.
The main thing I learned from your list is the pronunciation of "wifi". I was interested to learn this, because in Italy, or at least in my circles, it's actually pronounced as it is in English.
I was really just defending you from the accusation of being arrogant, which I didn't see at all. Speaking of Italy, I even see a lot of guidebooks that are spreading inaccurate ideas about the country I know best. No person or book gets everything exactly right.
The main thing I learned from your list is the pronunciation of "wifi". I was interested to learn this, because in Italy, or at least in my circles, it's actually pronounced as it is in English.
I was really just defending you from the accusation of being arrogant, which I didn't see at all. Speaking of Italy, I even see a lot of guidebooks that are spreading inaccurate ideas about the country I know best. No person or book gets everything exactly right.
Sep 20th, 2014, 08:30 AM
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Thanks, incasanova (don't waste your time reading any of them replies) ....
Bvlenci, You say "I myself was surprised you never ran into chicken" but see, I never claimed that, I wrote "very little chicken." Actually, on our very second day in Spain, driving up North, we stopped for a quick lunch -- and had grilled chicken breast (and were surprised to find a fried egg laying on the plate next to the chicken... Turns out to be a custom there).
...But still, chicken is not very common, and turkey even less (OK, maybe I was a bit dramatic claiming it, but to us it was non-existent)... In Madrid we stayed at an apartment hotel and when shopping at the local grocery store for bread, cheese and cold cuts, we could find ham all over the place, one single product of chicken, and no turkey. And again, I was never COMPLAINING, or had any EXPECTATIONS, I was simply making a point to the difference between what Americans are used to, and what they can expect in Spain.
Again, this short, 16 point report was never meant to be scientific but more of an empirical report...
(...And now we'll start seeing a barrage of posts here, dissecting and contradicting my usage of the word empirical...)
Bvlenci, You say "I myself was surprised you never ran into chicken" but see, I never claimed that, I wrote "very little chicken." Actually, on our very second day in Spain, driving up North, we stopped for a quick lunch -- and had grilled chicken breast (and were surprised to find a fried egg laying on the plate next to the chicken... Turns out to be a custom there).
...But still, chicken is not very common, and turkey even less (OK, maybe I was a bit dramatic claiming it, but to us it was non-existent)... In Madrid we stayed at an apartment hotel and when shopping at the local grocery store for bread, cheese and cold cuts, we could find ham all over the place, one single product of chicken, and no turkey. And again, I was never COMPLAINING, or had any EXPECTATIONS, I was simply making a point to the difference between what Americans are used to, and what they can expect in Spain.
Again, this short, 16 point report was never meant to be scientific but more of an empirical report...
(...And now we'll start seeing a barrage of posts here, dissecting and contradicting my usage of the word empirical...)
Sep 20th, 2014, 09:41 AM
#87
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>So the bottom line is, you could not point to even one fact I posted in my report that was false or incorrect.<
1. Madrid airport:
The correct direction of travel, when arriving internationally, is from T4S to T4. The distance one has to walk at the Adolfo Suárez Madrid-Barajas airport are similar to Heathrow, Dallas, Chicago and Denver, to name just a few.
5. Driving in Spain: >Not sure about the South. We were driving from Madrid up north and the coastal towns and villages along the Atlantic. Roads are excellent, well-maintained, and with good signage (even if one speaks no Spanish).<
I don't know which roads you traveled in your three-week adventure, but signage can be difficult if driving for the first time in Spain, especially in those areas where Spanish is not the main language.
7. Train:
Speeds are shown in kilometers per hour, not miles per hour. The fastest trains, the high-speed AVEs, will only reach 300 kph (187.5 mph).
They do not post which track a train will be leaving on until 20 minutes prior to departure, regardless of the station. Security is higher at the larger stations like Atocha, Chamartín and Sants Barcelona, but fairly relaxed at smaller stations around the country.
9. Pickpockets:
Pickpockets are common wherever there are crowds, tourist or otherwise. It's universal. The thing you need to worry about are the aggressive thieves who will assault you on the street.
11. Paying w/CC:
The "locals" do not offer an exchange rate. The rate is set by Visa and MC. If you do the transaction in US Dollars instead of Euros, it's done through a system called the DCC, Dynamic Currency Conversion, which sets the rate and charges a fee. The merchant typically receives 50% of the fee. American Express is the only credit card company that does not allow DCC.
13. Prices:
>Spain, like most (or all?) of Europe is expensive, quite more than the US. Especially when looking to fill one's stomach, not even at a fancy restaurant... A simple lunch for two could cost us $40 or more...<
Poor research and planning on your part. Dining in Spain is a lot less expensive than any restaurant of equal quality in the States. Every restaurant that wants to survive and depends on its neighbors dropping by during the week (not tourist) offers an inexpensive fixed-price menu at lunch and some in the evening. You couldn't do a "simple lunch" in the States for $40 for two if you included wine. Wine is included in the typical fixed-price menu in Spain, as is coffee, water and bread.
14. Food:
Chicken is not common in the north of Spain (except for Catalunya), but can be found on some menus. Jamón is found everywhere. You can find turkey at the La Paz Market in Madrid because of the US Embassy staff who live in the area.
>But a great solution for a cheap yet tasty meal on-the-go is the so popular Spanish sandwich (Bocadillos)<
Most Spaniards (a generalization since Catalans and Basque do not consider themselves Spanish) do not eat on-the-go. That's an American thing.
15. What to buy:
>We bought a jacket and 2 shearling coats and got a really great deal (yes, we negotiated a little bit...).<
You where either in one of the many Chinese shops (which sell tons of junk), or in the madina in Tangier if you "negotiated a little bit". Clarks in stores do not have the ability to negotiate the price of anything. Seasonal sales are held twice each year (by law), but some stores can get around the law by offering closeouts.
16. A/C: Like in most of Europe, this one is not as obvious as in the US...
Again, poor research and planning. I'm amazed that you don't mention the fact that bug screens on windows are also not commonly found in hotels, restaurants, or even your B&B.
1. Madrid airport:
The correct direction of travel, when arriving internationally, is from T4S to T4. The distance one has to walk at the Adolfo Suárez Madrid-Barajas airport are similar to Heathrow, Dallas, Chicago and Denver, to name just a few.
5. Driving in Spain: >Not sure about the South. We were driving from Madrid up north and the coastal towns and villages along the Atlantic. Roads are excellent, well-maintained, and with good signage (even if one speaks no Spanish).<
I don't know which roads you traveled in your three-week adventure, but signage can be difficult if driving for the first time in Spain, especially in those areas where Spanish is not the main language.
7. Train:
Speeds are shown in kilometers per hour, not miles per hour. The fastest trains, the high-speed AVEs, will only reach 300 kph (187.5 mph).
They do not post which track a train will be leaving on until 20 minutes prior to departure, regardless of the station. Security is higher at the larger stations like Atocha, Chamartín and Sants Barcelona, but fairly relaxed at smaller stations around the country.
9. Pickpockets:
Pickpockets are common wherever there are crowds, tourist or otherwise. It's universal. The thing you need to worry about are the aggressive thieves who will assault you on the street.
11. Paying w/CC:
The "locals" do not offer an exchange rate. The rate is set by Visa and MC. If you do the transaction in US Dollars instead of Euros, it's done through a system called the DCC, Dynamic Currency Conversion, which sets the rate and charges a fee. The merchant typically receives 50% of the fee. American Express is the only credit card company that does not allow DCC.
13. Prices:
>Spain, like most (or all?) of Europe is expensive, quite more than the US. Especially when looking to fill one's stomach, not even at a fancy restaurant... A simple lunch for two could cost us $40 or more...<
Poor research and planning on your part. Dining in Spain is a lot less expensive than any restaurant of equal quality in the States. Every restaurant that wants to survive and depends on its neighbors dropping by during the week (not tourist) offers an inexpensive fixed-price menu at lunch and some in the evening. You couldn't do a "simple lunch" in the States for $40 for two if you included wine. Wine is included in the typical fixed-price menu in Spain, as is coffee, water and bread.
14. Food:
Chicken is not common in the north of Spain (except for Catalunya), but can be found on some menus. Jamón is found everywhere. You can find turkey at the La Paz Market in Madrid because of the US Embassy staff who live in the area.
>But a great solution for a cheap yet tasty meal on-the-go is the so popular Spanish sandwich (Bocadillos)<
Most Spaniards (a generalization since Catalans and Basque do not consider themselves Spanish) do not eat on-the-go. That's an American thing.
15. What to buy:
>We bought a jacket and 2 shearling coats and got a really great deal (yes, we negotiated a little bit...).<
You where either in one of the many Chinese shops (which sell tons of junk), or in the madina in Tangier if you "negotiated a little bit". Clarks in stores do not have the ability to negotiate the price of anything. Seasonal sales are held twice each year (by law), but some stores can get around the law by offering closeouts.
16. A/C: Like in most of Europe, this one is not as obvious as in the US...
Again, poor research and planning. I'm amazed that you don't mention the fact that bug screens on windows are also not commonly found in hotels, restaurants, or even your B&B.
Sep 20th, 2014, 11:40 AM
#88
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"11. Paying w/CC:
The "locals" do not offer an exchange rate."
This hasn't been my experience. Maybe the vendors/locals aren't clear about what is going on when they swipe your card, but on occasion the restaurant or hotel gives a choice of euros or US dollars, and on two recent occasions they immediately charged me in dollars without even asking. I am surprised you have not run across this yet.
I have found driving in northern Spain to be VERY easy providing you can read a map. Getting through towns or cities is harder, signage wise.
Bug screens. I wish!
The "locals" do not offer an exchange rate."
This hasn't been my experience. Maybe the vendors/locals aren't clear about what is going on when they swipe your card, but on occasion the restaurant or hotel gives a choice of euros or US dollars, and on two recent occasions they immediately charged me in dollars without even asking. I am surprised you have not run across this yet.
I have found driving in northern Spain to be VERY easy providing you can read a map. Getting through towns or cities is harder, signage wise.
Bug screens. I wish!
Sep 20th, 2014, 11:58 AM
#89
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...So at the end of the day, Robert, you took the time and effort to post the SAME basic information — but in your elaborative words, and still, except for the slightly more accurate mathematical conversion from kph to mph — you posted NOTHING to prove my information was wrong....
...You interpret what I wrote the way you WANT to interpret, assume things which are false (you don't know what we ate for lunch, paying $40) — to insinuate I was wrong and you know better...
You wouldn't admit I was right about lack of Turkey in Spain, but you admit there's one place one can find turkey in Madrid, and that is at the La Paz Market in Madrid — and that's because of the US Embassy staff who live in the area.... Wow.
As to #15. What to buy: Again, you assume things which are simply false, and I'm not sure why you even bother... You did not read what I posted here, namely the name of the store we bought those coats at... Yet you take the liberty to claim we probably have bought them "in one of the many Chinese shops (which sell tons of junk)." Wow.
...As one other posters already noted here "why do they feel "obligated" to show off by sneering at advice that doesn't meet their superior knowledge standards?"
...You interpret what I wrote the way you WANT to interpret, assume things which are false (you don't know what we ate for lunch, paying $40) — to insinuate I was wrong and you know better...
You wouldn't admit I was right about lack of Turkey in Spain, but you admit there's one place one can find turkey in Madrid, and that is at the La Paz Market in Madrid — and that's because of the US Embassy staff who live in the area.... Wow.
As to #15. What to buy: Again, you assume things which are simply false, and I'm not sure why you even bother... You did not read what I posted here, namely the name of the store we bought those coats at... Yet you take the liberty to claim we probably have bought them "in one of the many Chinese shops (which sell tons of junk)." Wow.
...As one other posters already noted here "why do they feel "obligated" to show off by sneering at advice that doesn't meet their superior knowledge standards?"
Sep 20th, 2014, 12:50 PM
#90
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>you posted NOTHING to prove my information was wrong....<
Hopefully you found your way out to T4S when you finally left the country.
Turkey is the country, turkey is a bird native to the Americas, and not commonly found anywhere in Europe.
Enjoy your next adventure, wherever it may lead!
Hopefully you found your way out to T4S when you finally left the country.
Turkey is the country, turkey is a bird native to the Americas, and not commonly found anywhere in Europe.
Enjoy your next adventure, wherever it may lead!
Sep 20th, 2014, 01:17 PM
#91
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" turkey is a bird native to the Americas, and not commonly found anywhere in Europe."
Turkey is very common in France - the 2nd producer of turkey meat in the world after the US - and is available in all supermarkets. Turkey stuffed with chestnuts is a traditional Christmas dish. France exports 2/3rd of its production to other European countries, especially Germany.
Turkey is very common in France - the 2nd producer of turkey meat in the world after the US - and is available in all supermarkets. Turkey stuffed with chestnuts is a traditional Christmas dish. France exports 2/3rd of its production to other European countries, especially Germany.
Sep 20th, 2014, 05:05 PM
#94
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Pvoyageuse, I just looked up turkey production, and it wasn't until the 90s that it expanded so. In my experience one couldn't buy decent turkey in France before that. For a very fancy Thanksgiving party in Paris, I had to buy my bird at Fauchon. It was imported from the States. In 1975 my village store in Andalucia got a freezer and had Butterball-type turkeys available, also ice cream for the kids. i think the OP referred to no deli-style sliced turkey being available in Spain. Probably not, and I didn't look for any in France last March. Plus, turkey wasn't on any restaurant menu either. Robert is very knowledgeable about Spain. He's been there for almost as long as we.
Sep 20th, 2014, 08:20 PM
#95
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I wouldn't exactly call turkey meat a major food product in France. A few hundred thousand metric tons a year is hardly worth mentioning when compared to the more than 300 million turkeys consumed each year in the USA, and most, if not all, are completely tasteless. One of the reasons you will not find many turkeys running around in Spain.
Foie Gras and truffles on the other hand are far more prominent, as are (wild) rabbit and rooster. You will never be able to taste a 'wild turkey' in France. All are farmed, like farmed Salmon. So much for flavor.
Foie Gras and truffles on the other hand are far more prominent, as are (wild) rabbit and rooster. You will never be able to taste a 'wild turkey' in France. All are farmed, like farmed Salmon. So much for flavor.
Sep 20th, 2014, 09:58 PM
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Bedar : Turkey meat in France : 469.000 metric tons in 2007
"Avec 6,7 kilos par an et par habitant, les Français (77 % des ménages) sont en 2004 les troisièmes consommateurs au monde de dinde, derrière les Américains (numéro un) et les Irlandais. En 30 ans, la consommation de dinde des Français a été multipliée par 6."
http://www.ooshop.com/courses-en-lig...NOEUD_NIVEAU=3
http://www.auchandirect.fr/charcuter.../id1/468/13208
http://www.arcimbo.fr/cote-marche/pr...4-tr-200g.html
.... and I'll spare you Dia, Monoprix, G20,Casino, Lidl, Leclerc etc....
Christmas turkey recipes : http://www.marmiton.org/recette-noel...de-noel_1.aspx
Turkey meat is cheap comparend to beef, lamb and veal. It is very common in school cafeteria menus and in small unpretentious restaurants. Many of the kabobs sold in France are made with turkey meat. There is also a market for "hallal" turkeys : http://www.isla-mondial.com/produits/jambon-de-dinde
I have no doubt Robert is knowledgeable about Spain but we are talking about France here. Incidentally, I am French and I live in France.
"Avec 6,7 kilos par an et par habitant, les Français (77 % des ménages) sont en 2004 les troisièmes consommateurs au monde de dinde, derrière les Américains (numéro un) et les Irlandais. En 30 ans, la consommation de dinde des Français a été multipliée par 6."
http://www.ooshop.com/courses-en-lig...NOEUD_NIVEAU=3
http://www.auchandirect.fr/charcuter.../id1/468/13208
http://www.arcimbo.fr/cote-marche/pr...4-tr-200g.html
.... and I'll spare you Dia, Monoprix, G20,Casino, Lidl, Leclerc etc....
Christmas turkey recipes : http://www.marmiton.org/recette-noel...de-noel_1.aspx
Turkey meat is cheap comparend to beef, lamb and veal. It is very common in school cafeteria menus and in small unpretentious restaurants. Many of the kabobs sold in France are made with turkey meat. There is also a market for "hallal" turkeys : http://www.isla-mondial.com/produits/jambon-de-dinde
I have no doubt Robert is knowledgeable about Spain but we are talking about France here. Incidentally, I am French and I live in France.
Sep 20th, 2014, 10:15 PM
#98
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And, you must own a turkey farm, non ? Hahaha ! Robert also knows a lot about France, too.
Another weird thing about this TR is that the OP said she didn't find much chicken in Spain. V, v strange. I'm wondering if she was in Spain at all.
Another weird thing about this TR is that the OP said she didn't find much chicken in Spain. V, v strange. I'm wondering if she was in Spain at all.
