Whathello

The other way round is to believe you lived like a local because you were in an apartment.
I rented an apt in llubljana Lisbon Porto Firenze and paris recently and none of those would be considered 'local'.
They were fully equipped and clearly at other standards than apts locals live in.
In comparison when I went to my great aunt at Jussieu paris I had to climb 4 flights of stairs no lift the old wooden floor was creaking some plumbery needed fixing and there was no bloody AC.
Ask a US tourist who wants to live like a local to sleep without AC ... tell me people prefer apts because it is cheaper or you can cook or whatever but not living like a local.

Tulips

So true Whathello! I worked for a while for a relocation agent in London. Expats all wanted a charming Georgian or Victorian home, until they were faced with Victorian plumbing.

marvelousmouse

Menachem...I've not met anyone who cites "living like a local" as some kind of self actualization through travel, whatever that means. Most people are well aware of the difference between marketing and reality. They just prefer a cute residential neighborhood and a kitchen over a hotel in a boring business or tourist district. I enjoy daily housekeeping, so apartments aren't my thing, but I'm not wild about hotels. If I were to rent an apartment, it would be for an experience like massimop's- I want to be away from the crowds. I end up in the more residential neighborhoods for food or coffee anyway. Nothing quite so depressing as being in a foreign country and having to listen to the Americans at the next table talk about petco outfits!

Massimop- I appreciate the insight into Italians and rentals. I've often wondered about young families and historic properties. I'm sure there are people who raise children in a place like Venice, but it would not be my choice.

Whathello...a/c doesn't matter to all American tourists. Believe it or not many of us live in older buildings with stairs and no a/c here!

menachem

but marevelousmouse, it is purely aspirational, and indeed self-actualization, be it on a modest scale. I use hotels everywhere across Europe and beyond. I can assure you: they're never in a "boring business or tourist district". It's just the amount of money one is prepared to spend.

And also, should you rent an apartment in Paris or in Amsterdam, you'll be in a tourist district, and never "away from the crowds": because the apartments that make the most money is where tourists want to be. Locals increasingly live in the parts of the city where tourists would never go.

Whathello

So true Menachem.
In my favorite hotel in the 18th I hardly ever heard anything else than French spoken. No US tourist for sure. When I sleep in the 6th I am greeted in English.
Cherchez l'erreur.

marvelousmouse

Yes, but again, many people rent apartments for completely practical reasons, I.e. Kitchen. It's true that there are hotels in many interesting areas, but a lot of budget friendly hotels are not in interesting areas. They're by train stations or in really uninteresting tourist areas. They're convenient, but not attractive otherwise.

I understand the marketing itself is aspirational, but I mean I've not met a tourist who says they travel for self actualization. That's an accusation I see here that often that doesn't pan out in reality. They travel because they want to see somewhere. They aren't renting an apartment because of airbnb ads, or some idea that it will make them a more rounded individual. They're renting an apartment because they want an apartment.

I've no objection to staying in a "tourist area". Of course there are apartments in tourist areas. But there are different kinds of tourist areas- I would not enjoy Champs d' Elysees but I did enjoy Marais.

I do understand what you're talking about- we get posts here sometimes from people who actually mean they want to meet locals and make local friends, and that's not realistic. But I don't know people like that in real life. People travel to experience places, and a lot of people don't want to experience hotels for whatever reason.

Bedar

Most people rent apts because they are cheaper, esp if they need two or more bedrooms. A kitchen ? Maybe but most people want the experience of eating out. If I were staying someplace for, say, a week, perhaps I'd consider an apt, but we prefer hotels. Tourism protests ? I think people feel everyone should love them, but if you were faced with the hoardes 24/7, you'd feel exactly the same way.

IMDonehere

I don not like Airbnbs as I live in an apartment building in Manhattan and I do not like having a parade of strangers who have not been vetted by Airbnb. They do not check for criminal records or if they have liability insurance. They only things that matter are they paid for the apartment and another Airbnb facility gave them a good grade.

The law in NY State is that the owner or renter must live on the Airbnb premises, they cannot be absentee renters. We know that only happens on occasion. And besides a person being a naturally good citizen there is no incentive to be a good neighbor in terms of partying, and disposing of garbage properly.

marvelousmouse

Bedar- I don't know about that. When vacations come up, most of my friends and family cite a kitchen as the main reason to get an apartment or house rental. Some consider eating out for all meals too expensive, some have dietary issue that make eating out complicated, others don't find find restaurants relaxing at the end of the day. I'm sure a lot of people want extra room too, but the kitchen the main reason I hear about it.

I don't know that people expect to be loved- they just don't want to be hassled or to feel unwelcome. I don't enjoy high season in beach towns because people get stressed. I get why people like Imdonehere don't like tourists in their buildings, but it's not like you never end up with bad neighbors in general. 2 years ago, it was the heavy metal enthusiasts next door- now it's the pot smokers upstairs and I seriously hope they move out at the end of their lease. If they rented their place out to tourists, I think that might actually be an improvement. Inconsiderate neighbors are definitely not limited to airbnb.

kerouac

I have absolutely nothing against holiday rentals in cities or regions where there is no housing shortage. In France, for example, that's more than 90% of the country.

Strangely enough, tourists want to rent mostly in the other 10%. I'm not saying they are causing the problem, but they are certainly contributing to it.

Whathello

Obviously my father didn't rent his apartment in Charleroi, Belgium to tourists.
Wonder why actually. I am sure he would have rented it cheaply.

cheska15

We do a combination of hotels and apartments when travelling mainly for the reason of being able to make a coffee and a snack whenever we like. However the last apartment we rented in Rome in July we had to pay the balance in cash. 1,077 euros including city tax. No receipt was given even though we asked several times. Was the money declared and the city tax paid? Who knows. Perhaps Governments aren't reaping all the benefits of tourism as suggested.

Anyone who thinks living like a local is the best experience ever has got to be kidding. I am always glad to come home to my little house with land around it, good plumbing, flyscreens on the windows, and using more than two electrical items at one time without blowing the fuse box. But that is what happens when you visit a country that has a Centro older than we in Australia can possibly comprehend. I'm not saying this as a criticism and I love being a tourist. A respectful one at that.

Envierges

I think this link has not been posted before. More to think about

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ave-city-break

menachem

It's funny though, the article speaks about how the Amsterdam tourist board encourages people to seek accommodation outside Amsterdam. I follow the link: descriptions of Amsterdam neighbourhoods. Hmmmm.

It's funny though, I almost always point people to cities outside Amsterdam, a few others on that board do as well: the usual response is: nope, we want to be in Amsterdam, the entire time. Even though we are locals, and can propose quite attractive and memorable things that one can experience outside of Amsterdam. But no.

dotheboyshall

A common problem is locals being priced out of accommodation as property is either bought by people wanting a holiday home, conversions to hotels or full time Airbnb rentals.

It drives non-tourism businesses away and makes the whole economy seasonal with low levels of income out of season.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...use-prices-ban

marvelousmouse

I don't see why that's odd, menachem. Most posters only allot a few days for a city (sometimes for even a country) and assuming they chose Amsterdam for specific reasons, I don't see much of a motivation for them to take away days from Amsterdam for somewhere else.

Both articles are really interesting, but there are two interesting factors that stand out to me.

In the first, it's the idea of selling the longer city break to tourists or encouraging people to stay in obscure areas. I don't think that's going to work. People who want to spend their whole two weeks vacation in Paris are already doing so. People who only spend two days in Paris are not ignorant of Paris' many charms- even basic guidebooks have years worth of attractions described within them- it's just that they only have two weeks of vacation and they want to see as much as possible of Europe in the other twelve days. Australians and Americans especially. Plane tickets are a lot of money, and probably not something most people can swing every year, or even every 5 or 10 years. Americans especially don't get much time off, unless you're lucky enough to have a job that lets you, and in that case, you're probably making other sacrifices, like benefits or salary. If you only have 2 days in Paris, you aren't going to pass over the Louvre and Eiffel for less popular attractions.

In the second, it's the wages. Young people are leaving Cornwall not simply because they can't afford the houses. They're leaving also because their career options locally are limited. The houses are an unfortunate byproduct, but they are not the root of the problem. I'm sympathetic, because, you know, it would be nice to be able to buy a house and work in the town I grew up in, but unfortunately, I've yet to find a full time job in my field there. My siblings want to remain on the Oregon Coast, but they're starting to chafe at the lack of advancement in their fields. You've got to live where you can work. One of the people they mentioned in the article- the scarcity of housing is the least of his problems. He's barely scraping by. I made that type of wage in college, in a town that had reasonably priced, plentiful housing, and never mind what the local shops sold, I was more than a little concerned about my utility bill and how to avoid resorting to ramen.

Although, back to the first, a good first step might be for cities to put out more practical guidebooks to combat the "if it's Tuesday, it must be Rome" mentality. I'm messing around with my U.K. Eyewitness book tonight and the itineraries listed in it are ridiculous. I think their 2 day London itinerary took me 3 times as long, and I never did get to a few things on that list, so I'm curious to how long their "Scotland in one week" itinerary would take me...if people are reading guidebooks before they ask questions here, that would explain the questions more than the assumption that they don't read guidebooks.

menachem

marvelousmouse, NL is so tiny that you can see a lot. Much of what Amsterdam has, is elsewhere too, the canals, the history, and on a much nicer scale, more personable....oh wait....

cannabis. the red light district. OK, got it.

thursdaysd

Rick Steves has been telling people for years to sleep in Haarlem and day trip to Amsterdam, which is what his tours do. Don't know how many people follow the advice, though. I certainly didn't, but I did stay in Maastricht and Delft as well. (Loved Delft.)

suec1

Well A'dam does have 2 great museums and the Anne Frank House, altho the Corrie Ten Boom house in Haarlem might be an alternative for some. But there are delights beyond Amsterdam. (We were there about two years ago - crowded beyond belief. We stayed near the main train station - getting out of that area felt like a life-threatening adventure). Loved Amsterdam but will not return.

menachem

@suec1: excellent decision.